Knowing when to call a dive

[Leejnd]

Only 14 cases [out of 167 fatalities] involved intentional solo diving. However, in very few cases did divers comply with a reasonable buddy system dive practice. In one case, a dive guide died trying to save diver who became unconscious. In several instances a buddy retrieved an unconscious diver who subsequently died, most likely from a natural disease like myocardial infarction or aneurism rupture. Most of the time victims got into trouble after separating from a buddy and there was neither witness to the accident nor help when it was needed.​

Can I ask why the above quote is even relevent to this discussion? Note the line that you bolded... I would maintain that being 10 feet away while not taking your eyes of your buddy can in no way be considered "separating from a buddy". There was no buddy separation, and no failure of the buddy system. I'm not really sure why a few people in this thread have siezed on this as some kind of failure on the OP's part.

10 feet between buddies could only be an issue in a couple of extreme situations: really bad vis, or really strong current. Neither of those conditions existed.

I'm glad that you agree with the majority in here that he did nothing wrong...but it's unfortunate to see so much ink in this thread devoted to that 10 feet. It's not even the point of the story, so it's a shame that that seems to be what some people are zeroing in on. The point of the story is that his young daughter was mature and self-aware enough to call a dive when she felt uncomfortable...before she even began it. Good for her, and good for him for raising a bright, mature daughter who will probably shape up to be an excellent diver because she recognizes what's most important in diving: safety first, fun later.

Anyway, back to the topic:

We just got back from vacation, so I haven't had time to post an update. We went to Lake Rawlings on 7/28. We made two dives, neither time did she have any issues. She had a great time, saw many things of interest, and was anxious to go back.

Very glad to hear this.

My buddies and I almost have a macho thing going with calling dives. We come back and brag about how tame conditions were and yet we still decided not to dive. I'm just waiting for the day one of us leaves a pool session based on "adverse conditions".

The one time I had to call a dive when I REALLY didn't want to, was my first effort at kayak diving. We had a helluva time getting the kayaks past the surf zone - and then it took a pretty long time to paddle out to the pinnacle we were going to dive. Conditions were fine for the whole paddle out, but once we got there the wind suddenly kicked up, and we started worrying that kayak's anchors wouldn't hold. We sat there for 30 minutes waiting to see if it would die down, but it didn't. It wasn't horrible - it was probably fine - but it was on the border, and we decided to call it. Which really sucked because it had taken me an hour to drive there, then all the effort of getting the kayaks down to the beach, loaded, past the surf zone, the long paddle out, and then a long paddle back - and no payoff.

But I am proud of myself that I didn't let any of that push me into doing a dive in borderline conditions.

 

[Leejnd]

10' is 9' 11" more than is needed for the daughter to make her last breath a nice big one, full of water.

So now you're saying he should be no more than 1 INCH away?

If just being in the water is so dangerous that you feel people need to be within an inch of each other at every moment, then people shouldn't swim. Ever. Because at that point, that's all she was doing - swimming. She wasn't diving, she was floating on the water.

Really? I don't consider an unexpected wave, bad leg cramps, passing out or panic to be all that bizarre.

If those things are SO likely to happen to anyone any time that they are floating on the surface of a body of water, then really, none of us should be diving. Or swimming, for that matter.

This is alarmist to the extreme.

In fact, a huge percentage of both drownings and SCUBA incidents happen on the surface during the ascent or descent portion of the dive.

Which is why it's so good he remained so close to her, and kept her in his sight the whole time. AND why she deserves kudos for calling the dive when things didn't feel right. (Oh right, you forgot that part - the actual POINT of the thread, which you have ignored so that you can flog him.)

Yes. I define "Buddy distance" as "the distance where I can grab my buddy if I'm breathing like a hoover, just exhaled and was OOA" This is generally around an arm's length or two horizontally. There's never any guarantee that anybody can quickly descend (or ascend) without injury.

So you're telling me that you never venture beyond arm's reach of your buddy when diving? Even in clear, calm conditions? I honestly don't know anyone who dives like that. I disagree that 10 feet is a problem...especially one worth eviscerating this guy over.

However I'm sure your buddy appreciates you disclosing your level of concern for their safety.

My buddy is my husband, and neither one of us feel that we need to be touching each other 100% of the time during our dives. We remain close, and never lose sight of each other. I don't recall anything in any of my training that says I need to always be "less than 10 feet away".

I've been involved in a number of rescues and can tell you that the amount of time it takes to go from "I'm having a little problem" to "Oh s***!" can be measured in seconds. On one hand.

Ten feet IS measured in seconds...again, unless you are in strong current, which they weren't.

If my post saves somebody's life, I'll consider it to be well worth any emotional discomfort it may have caused.

Your post isn't saving anyone's life. Your post is just flogging a Dad who is proud of his daughter for doing the right thing.

There was nothing in the rules that said I had to tell someone "everything is fine" when it isn't,

But the rules DO say:

This forum is intended to be a very friendly, "flame free zone" where divers of any skill level may ask questions about basic scuba topics without fear of being accosted. Please show respect and courtesy at all times. Remember that the inquirer is looking for answers that they can understand. This is a learning zone and consequently, any off-topic or overly harsh responses will be removed.

 

[aquaregia]

I'm mostly trying to stay out of this, however I was trained (and usually dive) in conditions that I suppose count as low-vis, and I was trained to stay within arms reach of my buddy at all times. As a result, I tend to be that close even when there's 20'+ visibility. I had at least 80' of visibility earlier this week and I was close enough to my buddy that I probably could have elbowed him without unlinking my hands.
I guess my point is that if one is used to being very close to their buddy, 10' might seem like a long way away. My initial reaction to this story was that it felt like a long way away, if for no other reason than I don't like to ascend from 10' to the surface particularly quickly, however I try to not make judgements about divers with more experience than myself who are in conditions I know nothing about.
Additionally, I agree that msg's daughter's a rockstar.

 

[flots am]

So now you're saying he should be no more than 1 INCH away?

Uhhh. No, you said that. I said it wasn't difficult to drown if your mouth was under an inch of water.

And although you might not like my answer, I don't care if you like it, so I guess we're even.

If you were having problems on the surface, would you rather have someone right there next to you who could offer immediate assistance, or 10' under you trying to guess what's going on?

And as far as the "Special Forum Rules" go, I can't think of anything more valuable to a new diver than understanding what the riskier parts of the dive are.

flots.

 

[Leejnd]

I'm mostly trying to stay out of this...

[snip]

Additionally, I agree that msg's daughter's a rockstar.

Yeah, I'm pulling out of it too - sometimes it's just not worth trying to get through to certain people.

Anyway, agree that she's a rockstar. Wish I had that much confidence in my own kids' maturity and ability to think clearly under pressure. Fortunately they have no interest in diving!

 

[JerseyMike]

Anyone can call any dive at any time for any reason, with no consequence!!!

I second that motion!

 

[Crush]

Can I ask why the above quote is even relevent to this discussion? Note the line that you bolded... I would maintain that being 10 feet away while not taking your eyes of your buddy can in no way be considered "separating from a buddy". There was no buddy separation, and no failure of the buddy system. I'm not really sure why a few people in this thread have siezed on this as some kind of failure on the OP's part.

My quote is relevant because this thread has degenerated into a "you're gonna die" vs. "you're not going to die" argument. Rather than express an uninformed opinion I cited a scientific study of dive fatalities. I believe that based on that study the OPs adventure falls into the "you're not going to die" category.

You need to mellow out - I am in agreement with you. Read my post before you criticize.

 

[Leejnd]

My quote is relevant because this thread has degenerated into a "you're gonna die" vs. "you're not going to die" argument. Rather than express an uninformed opinion I cited a scientific study of dive fatalities. I believe that based on that study the OPs adventure falls into the "you're not going to die" category.

You need to mellow out - I am in agreement with you. Read my post before you criticize.

I do know you agree with me - and I agree with you. We are in violent agreement.

I totally agree that this thread devolved into a classic "Yer gonna die!" flogging thread. Which is why I was saying that even suggesting that there was any kind of buddy separation or failure was irrelevent. That's the point I was trying to make. Apologies if I didn't make it clear that I agreed with you. Mea culpa. :blinking:

 

[adurso]

A BPW will solve that "you're going to die" syndrome....

 

[Dyno Bill]

I'm having a difficult time here Flot, are you feeling that two divers need to be at arms length from each other at all times? I have never witnessed a diving style like that and am just curious. I looked at your profile and it seems to actually say nothing at all of use for the purpose of understanding your background and or the area that you enjoy diving.