log book

[chrisch]

...
2. You are too uptight with your own principal.
....

There is no "principle" here. I keep reading that people are upset they have lost some of their diving holiday to undertake a check out dive which appears to me to be largely to let the guide sort out who to guide and who to let dive on their own.

One of the really nice things about SB is you get people from all over the world. Where I live there are (more or less) no guided dives. So I am interested in this as - to me - it is a curiosity. I dive mostly at the weekend and book a couple of spaces on a boat for me and my buddy. You turn up, pay the skipper and make the dive. Afterwards put the kit in the car, drive home and have a beer. All the other people on the boat do the same thing. In the summer we do much the same thing in France or we dive the caves there. You book a boat, turn up, pay, dive, go home. The caves you turn up, dive, go home. If you pick one of the popular caves (e.g Ressel CaveAtlas.com » Cave Diving » France » Emergence Du Ressel) then there might be other divers, mostly you are on your own. The caves are in the middle of nowhere, no entrance fee, no log book checks, no C Card required.

A few years back we go the chance to dive in Portugal as the wife was on a course (for work). I found a dive centre on the Internet, booked two spaces on the boat, turned up, dived and then went back to the hotel for a beer.

So please forgive me if I am curious as to what a "check out" dive actually is and what a "guided" dive is. I am curious why (in some parts of the world) such things are deemed necessary. I have never been asked for my log book to show recent diving. What is being described sounds like some sort of equivalent of the big groups of tourists I see being herded round city centres with a guide telling them some made up nonsense about the ancient monuments which turn out to be a library or a public toilet. I am curious why folk do it. That is all.

 

[Centrals]

So please forgive me if I am curious as to what a "check out" dive actually is and what a "guided" dive is. I am curious why (in some parts of the world) such things are deemed necessary. I have never been asked for my log book to show recent diving. What is being described sounds like some sort of equivalent of the big groups of tourists I see being herded round city centres with a guide telling them some made up nonsense about the ancient monuments which turn out to be a library or a public toilet. I am curious why folk do it. That is all.

1. Check out dive:
The dive shop want to see your ability. Some divers aren't what they claimed to be ie. diving ability. Quite common on liveaboard. My only two encounters were also on liveaboard.

2. Log book:
They want to know your latest entry. There might be other reasons but I never asked. I logged every dive so I always travel with one or two if it is a combined rec and tec trip.

3. Guided dive:
The practice might be alien to you but it is part of the scuba culture in my part of the world. As I had said on few occasions, no guide means no dive. End of the story. Why don't you contact some operators from Maldives to Indonesia and suggest no guided dive? I won't be at all surprised that local LAW might has something to do with it.

 

[chrisch]

.....3. Guided dive:
The practice might be alien to you but it is part of the scuba culture in my part of the world. As I had said on few occasions, no guide means no dive. End of the story. Why don't you contact some operators from Maldives to Indonesia and suggest no guided dive? I won't be at all surprised that local LAW might has something to do with it.

Points 1/2 fair enough and I fully understand.

I am not an international law expert but to the best of my knowledge Scuba is an unregulated sport in most of the world. As suggested earlier in the thread more likely to be chasing the dollars.

This issue is pertinent in light of what is happening in Gozo (small Maltese island) at the minute in respect of the Steve Martin case (some posting by Steve on here)
?Difficult to prove diver responsible for deaths? - timesofmalta.com

The "defence expert" is suggesting that all diving from the island should be guided to avoid further tragedy. Again the viewpoint of a lot of the UK diver community is that the motivation is money. Furthermore under European law the person who will be held responsible is probably the "best qualified" (whatever that means). So if I am diving on this island with a guide who is a PADI Divemaster, am I liable for him/her? I really don't want to have to look after some rookie DM who has 200 dives in a quarry and isn't even decompression certified and has never been below 30m. I don't have half an hour to explain to the guide how the long hose primary donate system works and what to do when he runs out of gas on me.

By the same token I understand there are unusual currents and sea conditions on the island. If the dive shop offer to show me how to cope and understand that better I will be grateful. Maybe even do a dive with a local and suitably experienced person - call them a guide if you like. But that is my choice. I will pick the venue and the depth to maximise the time diving, not be required to do a fin pivot in 10m over barren sand.

In the unlikely reality that actual law dictates a dive guide anywhere on the planet I would want to be 100% certain I am not responsible for that person before I get in the water with them. Maybe get them to sign a disclaimer?

 

[Patoux01]

Furthermore under European law the person who will be held responsible is probably the "best qualified" (whatever that means).

Care pointing me to the law article of this?

 

[chrisch]

Care pointing me to the law article of this?

It is a contentious point of the (civil) law of negligence. People are owed a duty of care and the more "qualified" the person the more they are required to understand the potential risk. From the discussions pertaining to diving there is a very great deal of disagreement around the subject by lay commentators (including me). As best I understand the matter it is case law and therefore it is the interpretation of the relevant cases and any future finding in respect of cases. I am also unaware of any cases being used as reference that come from the scuba industry.

So - as an example - if the "guide" wants to swim through an overhead environment but has no OHE certification or training should I stop him from doing so? As a cave trained person I am familiar with the OHE and it's hazards. How would I know if the guide has OHE training or not?

It is a minefield and racked with ambiguity. (But if law were simple how would lawyers make a living )

 

[Centrals]

You can argue your case til the cows come home. At the end of the day you might not even get a check out dive if you refuse the dive guide.
I am here to give you my experiences on diving in SE Asia. You can take it with a pinch of salt. It is none of my business if you find yourself stranded in a resort with nowhere to dive.

BTW, why don't you start a thread on non guided dive in Asia? I would love to see the result.

 

[noblesix]

Your dive computer keeps logs. SSI app has digital log book feature.

 

[kafkaland]

Care pointing me to the law article of this?

In Germany, there is the legal concept of a de-facto guide. If the skills on a team (in scuba, mountaineering, or whatever) are unequal, and the weakest member relies on the most experienced one, and there is evidence that the latter has assumed such a leadership or mentoring role, then he automatically has a duty of care, consistent with what a reasonable person with his background would be able to deliver. And if he fails to do so, he may be criminally or civilly liable.

 

[TMHeimer]

chrisch, We dive the way you do here in Nova Scotia. In the Southern U.S. same--I never did a checkout or guided dive. My only tropical dive week was in Panama and most of the time it was just me and the DM anyway--the last day we were in buddy teams following the DM, so I guess those were my only 2 "guided" dives. I think the simple thing here is that many many people get certified to dive in warm tropical areas--maybe once or twice a year. And we all know they can present safety/insurance problems for the dive ops. I doubt many of these folks seek the wonders of diving in Eastern Canada or the UK once or twice a year.

 

[Centrals]

chrisch, We dive the way you do here in Nova Scotia. In the Southern U.S. same--I never did a checkout or guided dive. My only tropical dive week was in Panama and most of the time it was just me and the DM anyway--the last day we were in buddy teams following the DM, so I guess those were my only 2 "guided" dives. I think the simple thing here is that many many people get certified to dive in warm tropical areas--maybe once or twice a year. And we all know they can present safety/insurance problems for the dive ops. I doubt many of these folks seek the wonders of diving in Eastern Canada or the UK once or twice a year.

It has nothing to do with experience, qualification etc etc. A dive guide will be allocated with you/group regardless of who you are!!
What you did in New Scotland does not apply to SE Asia. I wonder how many foreign "experienced divers" visiting your domain every year as compare with Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines and Thailand?
If you ever join a liveaboard trip to eg. Palau, Komodo in Indonesia, Maldives, Similan in Thailand or Tubatahha in Philippines etc. Please tell the operator that you do not wish the service of the dive guide. I love to see how many boat captain will let you jump into the water without one.
Those places are all frequent by inexperienced warm water divers!!!!! Fat chance.