Losing regulator

[MXGratefulDiver]

Now, if you don't have the operational issues that I do with a necklace, I say go for it ... but when you practice initiating it's use, you have a problem to work out: you donate the long hose and duck your chin ... what exactly do you do if the auxiliary is not there? Have you answered this question and drilled your response? I'm not sure I have a good answer for you, but I do think that it is a good question to ask.

... you reach back behind your head, grab an IP hose and trace it forward. With a properly-configured first stage ... because of the way the hoses will route ... the second stage that's supposed to be on the bungee will be attached to the port closest to your head ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[scubavaquera]

One problem with this is that many people, speaking from experience, comment that panicking OA diver is likely to go after your primary. With unpredictability of panic, all kinda scenarios could be imagined when OA diver is fighting for regulator that is attached to you. I am not sure how it may work. More experienced (in my case that means just about anybody on this board) may disagree, I don't know. How about bungee cord under ziptie but without knots, so it stays there quiet securely but is going to release if pulled hard enough? Could this be a solution?

I will add that in my experience, this is true. It happend to me this summer. In this particular case, a OOA diver came up from behind me about 30 min. into the dive, clawed into my shoulder and spun me around, did a couple crazy flopping motions and then ripped my primary out of my mouth. It happened so fast I didn't know what in the h*ll was going on. Luckily, good training and experience kicked in and I simply reached down for my octo. and let the guy keep my primary regulator. I KNEW there was no point in fighting him for it.
Quickly, the DM came over to us and switched the guy over to his (DM's) octo. before I had a chance to do it.
I was very calm while it was happening, but I'm not gonna lie, when we got to shore for our SI, I did have a little 'moment'. The dude never even apologized to me or anything. He was a very arrogant SOB from the get-go and had been bragging about what a great and wonderful diver and photogropher he was. (usually a red-flag) He was pretty special, allright! BTW- He was diving w/o a buddy (he couldn't be bothered with one because he had to take pictures) but the ass-hat never checked his air, apparently. I am so glad he did not do this to a new diver. The outcome might have been much different.
I had, of course, thought about scenarios like that (and many others) because of my own DM training and hoped that I would handle it well if it ever happened to me, but until it does- you honestly don't know how you or the other person are going to react. I now think that instructors should always teach their students to handle this type of scenario because I feel it is a much more realistic one than the PADI OW manual 'pardon me, but I am OOA. May I please use your octo.?' signal.
So - that is just my two cents worth. I personally do not attach my primary to my neck and in this case, I am glad I did not.

 

[Thalassamania]

No one has attached a primary to their neck since the 1960s, the necklace under discussion if for the auxiliary.

 

[boulderjohn]

Many divers are taught a shoulder drop and/or arm sweep method for recovering their regulator. Often that does not work. ...
The reach back and follow the hose has to work (if it doesn't you've much larger troubles than you thought) yet I've watched lots of divers (in real and other classes) do arm sweep after arm sweep, with each one getting faster and more spasmodic, until having reached critical mass they bolt for the surface.

I have developed a theory about this preference for the option that is least likely to work. I developed it when I switched my instruction from teaching initial skills on the knees to teaching them in a horizontal position. Divers learning on their knees frequently kneel with their torsos leaning backwards slightly. Gravity pulls the tank down and away from the diver. When they do the reach technique, they have a very hard time reaching the hose, even lifting with the left hand (as you describe). The sweep method works better for them in that position, so they are more likely to use it. In contrast, when they are in a horizontal position, as they would be while diving, gravity puts the tank where it is supposed to be, and the hose they want is right behind the right ear. (In fact, when they try to discard the hose to initiate the drill, they have trouble because it naturally falls right back into place in front of them.) When they reach for the hose, it is ridiculously easy to find, even without using the left hand to lift the tank. In fact, the biggest problem I see is that they think it is harder to find than it is and reach past the hose when they are looking for it.

Now, if you don't have the operational issues that I do with a necklace, I say go for it ... but when you practice initiating it's use, you have a problem to work out: you donate the long hose and duck your chin ... what exactly do you do if the auxiliary is not there? Have you answered this question and drilled your response? I'm not sure I have a good answer for you, but I do think that it is a good question to ask.

... you reach back behind your head, grab an IP hose and trace it forward. With a properly-configured first stage ... because of the way the hoses will route ... the second stage that's supposed to be on the bungee will be attached to the port closest to your head ...

I am embarrassed to say that this has happened to me. Somehow both I and my buddy missed the fact that I had not placed necklace over my head before the dive. When we did an OOA drill and I discovered the problem, it was simply a matter of doing exactly what is described above--reach back and pull it over your shoulder. It took a couple of seconds.

EDIT: This is actually the scenario that led me to use the bungeed alternate on my singles rig as well as my doubles. I read about someone in Europe who drowned when she went OOA. She went to her buddy, but his octo had come undone from the holder and become trapped behind him. She panicked when she could not find it. I figured that the bungeed necklace is not likely to get lost, and if it is, it is easy for me (the non-panicked diver) to retrieve it.

 

[Thalassamania]

John, that's the point ... a no-fail emergency plan, not a sweep and, "oh my goodness, where did it go?" one.

You body position analysis is dead on, I suspect our lack of kneeling work was why we so early rejected then arm sweep as non-functional.

 

[ahava]

Perhaps I was not clear, sorry ... I'll try again.

Your second stage must be attached at the first stage in order to function, so that's where you go to find it, left hand goes under the cylinder(s) and lifts while your right hand reaches over the top to the regulator first stage, encircles the IP hose and then pulls outward and slides down the hose. Now the second stage is in your hand and you're ready to go. If you reach back and it is not there, you have, as I have observed before, larger problems than you thought. Securing your second stage with a secondary attachment (anywhere) maybe a convenience, but if you learn to depend on that attachment there is a finite increase in the chance that things will go seriously wrong when you really need it.

Now, if you don't have the operational issues that I do with a necklace, I say go for it ... but when you practice initiating it's use, you have a problem to work out: you donate the long hose and duck your chin ... what exactly do you do if the auxiliary is not there? Have you answered this question and drilled your response? I'm not sure I have a good answer for you, but I do think that it is a good question to ask.

Now that you clarified what you meant I agree with you. You need to know what to do if it is not there when needed. : )

 

[rlynch]

+50....ish on Bungied Backup regulator under your chin

My reasons.....

1) you always know where its at
2) your primary is the PRIMARY target of an OOG diver - give it to him/her. It will calm them down which is what you want. End dive and ascent immeditaly.
3) if you forget to put it on your neck; reach up and trace the hose from the 1st stage (or sweep as PADI teaches) and put it back over your neck where it belongs.
4) check that its there by breathing off it (3 inhalations) durring your pre-dive check and double check that it is in fact around your neck at this time as well.
5) Practice switches so they are second nature, they need to be when you do it for real.

my 2 cents...

 

[Thalassamania]

I agree with all that you say, save #1 ... and that is a potential BIG PROBLEM when things go south.

 

[rlynch]

See #3 then - I'm thinking from a trim position as well.
#4 is the check in my list

 

[Thalassamania]

Those are all nice checks, but none of them provide an absolute guarantee that the aux. will be under your neck at the moment that you need it. There are all sorts of ways that it might be deplaced after #4. You need to be prepared to effortless recover it in a manner that you can absolutely count on working, as John discussed above. Arm sweeps don't cut it.