Pavao
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lol no, but indeed their commercials are pretty catchy, I can never look away
Marking Jumps and T's
- Thread starter Capt Jim Wyatt
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[Work avoidance behavior here.]
I've been very intrigued with the comments of so many experienced cave divers, particularly Florida cave divers, about the use of a personal arrow -- or more to the point, the non-use of a personal arrow. Just about every comment is contrary to what I was taught some 7 years ago.
Just for kicks I went back to the three texts that were used in my Full Cave class to see what was written about the use of personal arrows. The following is what I found:
NACD Cavern/Cave Diver Workbook -- First Edition - 2005-2006 -- page 82: "Personal line arrows, which should be clearly and uniquely marked by the individual diver, are used by individual divers for a variety of purposes including... securing jump lines where there is no permanent line arrow at the point of the jump and indicating a diver's direction of travel in emergency situations."
NSS/CDS Workbook -- 2002 -- page 32: "PLACED LINE ARROW -- Temporary placement; Arrow subject to movement; Placed on a line by diver to show direction of his/her exit. The problem with this method is that it may give incorrect information to other divers in the system by referencing a conflicting direction to marked or known exit."
NAUI Cave Diver Level 1 -- Student Workbook -- March, 2005 -- Page 40: "Line Arrows: 1). When should they be used? -- They are used to indicate the direction to "YOUR" (emphasis in original) exit anytime you leave a continuous line. When you return to the permanent line during an exit and have to decide which way to go (left or right), it will provide that information, if it was installed correctly.
...
3). Who placed this line arrow? -- You can only be certain that a line arrow is pointing in the direction of your exit if you installed it. (emphasis in original). That is because other divers could have entered from another entrance and placed it to indicate their exit direction, not yours."
I have no idea what any revised texts might say but I do find it interesting that the three texts are similar and appear to be contrary to popular opinion on this thread.
I've been very intrigued with the comments of so many experienced cave divers, particularly Florida cave divers, about the use of a personal arrow -- or more to the point, the non-use of a personal arrow. Just about every comment is contrary to what I was taught some 7 years ago.
Just for kicks I went back to the three texts that were used in my Full Cave class to see what was written about the use of personal arrows. The following is what I found:
NACD Cavern/Cave Diver Workbook -- First Edition - 2005-2006 -- page 82: "Personal line arrows, which should be clearly and uniquely marked by the individual diver, are used by individual divers for a variety of purposes including... securing jump lines where there is no permanent line arrow at the point of the jump and indicating a diver's direction of travel in emergency situations."
NSS/CDS Workbook -- 2002 -- page 32: "PLACED LINE ARROW -- Temporary placement; Arrow subject to movement; Placed on a line by diver to show direction of his/her exit. The problem with this method is that it may give incorrect information to other divers in the system by referencing a conflicting direction to marked or known exit."
NAUI Cave Diver Level 1 -- Student Workbook -- March, 2005 -- Page 40: "Line Arrows: 1). When should they be used? -- They are used to indicate the direction to "YOUR" (emphasis in original) exit anytime you leave a continuous line. When you return to the permanent line during an exit and have to decide which way to go (left or right), it will provide that information, if it was installed correctly.
...
3). Who placed this line arrow? -- You can only be certain that a line arrow is pointing in the direction of your exit if you installed it. (emphasis in original). That is because other divers could have entered from another entrance and placed it to indicate their exit direction, not yours."
I have no idea what any revised texts might say but I do find it interesting that the three texts are similar and appear to be contrary to popular opinion on this thread.
I think the NACD one is different from the others. It says "diver's direction of travel in emergency situations". In general, this will be the closest exit.
And how does the advice of not trusting any arrows unless placed by the divers themselves work on sites with permanent line, marked jumps and permanent arrows indicating exits? Will now all divers start placing their own arrows? That would be an interesting mess. I think that because those sites are maintained with certain rules, one must be careful with how things are done.
It has been asked before, how does a diver recognize what are personal arrows in an emergency where there may even be zero viz?
If there are ways that reduce confusion, I don't see why not to use them.
Red shift -- even the NACD text says to use a "personal marker" for unmarked jumps. NONE of the texts say "Don't put in a personal arrow that is contrary to the established navigation" which appears to be the position of most on this thread -- to the contrary, they all seem to assume that one may well put in a contrary arrow at an unmarked jump.
I don't have an answer but I was struck by the apparent conflict between the texts and this thread.
I don't have an answer but I was struck by the apparent conflict between the texts and this thread.
Pavao
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If both an arrow and cookie can safely and accurately tell YOU which direction to go when YOU install them properly, but only one of the two may give contradicting information to other divers in the system, which would you choose to use?
Jack Hammer
Contributor
But the NACD says to use a personal marker pointing at the emergency exit, not pointing towards the route the divers want to do, which can be different if all things are well. So arrows, fastest way out, other markers can point to a specific path a diver wants to take.
And when other books recognize the possible problem of using arrows with personal meanings, I think it's logical to try to avoid ambiguity as much as possible.
But it's interesting to see that there are different positions about this. I wasn't aware.
And when other books recognize the possible problem of using arrows with personal meanings, I think it's logical to try to avoid ambiguity as much as possible.
But it's interesting to see that there are different positions about this. I wasn't aware.
Red shift -- I think you have misread the NACD position -- at least that's my take. It isn't that the personal arrow points to the "emergency exit" but that "in an emergency" the arrow points in the direction the diver has taken. For example, lost buddy -- put your personal arrow on the line in the "right" direction (to your exit) so that WHEN the lost buddy comes upon it, he will know that YOU have put your arrow down in the proper direction. Again, at least that's my take -- but I've been wrong so many times before only my wife keeps count!
I was taught that when executing a lost buddy search, I backtrack along the line until I reach a point that I think it is a good bet that he her she might have gone wrong, say by taking an accidental visual jump. I then place a personal arrow pointing to my direction of travel and attach the reel I am going to use to conduct my buddy search. When I return to the line at the end of that search, hopefully with my buddy, the way to the exit will be marked.
ScubaInChicago
Contributor
Sally Struthers taught me to draw an arrow on my cookie so it only gives information to me.
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