New Wreck In Picton!!!

[StatusMaker]

I completely 100% agree with you. You can come into my house, look around and you will only find books, pictures and three bottles that I picked up in the middle of the st. lawrence.

I can say the same thing for the crew thats currently diving it. Some of these guys have been friends of mine for years and never once have I seen anything in their homes that even closely resembles anything from the wooden ships that we dive.

I do have those archeological surveys that I have participated on the past, include the waome and government sponsered trips to lake erie to help document a few of the wrecks that are out there. Oh yeah, and a train wreck in fenelon falls (oh are you ever missing a dive there!!!). As well as videos that were taking back in the day when if you saw your hand at arms lenght you have outstanding, brag to your friends, and document it visibility.

You could even ask anyone who has sat and listened to me chat about diving, every single time I cant stress enough how dissappointed I am when I see things missing and stress to them to leave it all alone. There are so many things I wish my wife could see on these wrecks that have gone missing. Such as, who stole the plack of the Ocean Wave, or took the stuff off the manola (how many knew there was stuff in the manola!) or the door handle from the olive branch (stark white, coolest thing to see in the middle of a dark wreck). Or the peaches from the Eccles?

I am not, and never will be a pillager of shipwrecks, nor will anyone that comes out on my boat ever make it back to shore with an artifact from a wreck.

Enjoy it where it is, leave it for others.

Darryl Koster

 

[Scuba_Steve]

I completely 100% agree with you. You can come into my house, look around and you will only find books, pictures and three bottles that I picked up in the middle of the st. lawrence.

Yeah, I keep my stuff out of my home as well.

hehehehe

Kidding, man.

 

[Tom R]

Kind of funny how you mention the peaches on the Eccles as they disappeared before the wreck was opened up "offically" , but hey what do I know there was a lot more missing I had the fortune to dive this wreck with the locators of her.

I completely 100% agree with you. You can come into my house, look around and you will only find books, pictures and three bottles that I picked up in the middle of the st. lawrence.

I can say the same thing for the crew thats currently diving it. Some of these guys have been friends of mine for years and never once have I seen anything in their homes that even closely resembles anything from the wooden ships that we dive.

I do have those archeological surveys that I have participated on the past, include the waome and government sponsered trips to lake erie to help document a few of the wrecks that are out there. Oh yeah, and a train wreck in fenelon falls (oh are you ever missing a dive there!!!). As well as videos that were taking back in the day when if you saw your hand at arms lenght you have outstanding, brag to your friends, and document it visibility.

You could even ask anyone who has sat and listened to me chat about diving, every single time I cant stress enough how dissappointed I am when I see things missing and stress to them to leave it all alone. There are so many things I wish my wife could see on these wrecks that have gone missing. Such as, who stole the plack of the Ocean Wave, or took the stuff off the manola (how many knew there was stuff in the manola!) or the door handle from the olive branch (stark white, coolest thing to see in the middle of a dark wreck). Or the peaches from the Eccles?

I am not, and never will be a pillager of shipwrecks, nor will anyone that comes out on my boat ever make it back to shore with an artifact from a wreck.

Enjoy it where it is, leave it for others.

Darryl Koster

 

[Dan MacKay]

In all seriousness now (As I am a continual jokester about most things) what has always kinda confused me is this "virgin wreck" thing.

It was a virgin, what, 4-5 years ago? So next year? it'll be opened up to the public. So in the mean time, the "surveyors/finders/etc" are secretly doing the initial raping under the guise of "science and preservation". To be sure they're probably doing some measurments and stuff, but really, big deal. It seems to be what I had said earlier, "Don't touch anything I haven't had a chance to bad yet". "And then when I'm done taking what I want, you guys shouldn't take anything that is left."

Snipped

Steve

Hi Steve,

It appears that you have a rather jaundiced view of what data collection and preservation efforts are about.

First and foremost you have to think of what a shipwreck represents. It is many things to many people. To some it may represent a marine disaster sometimes accompanied by the additional human tragedy of the loss of life. To some it represents a dive site for recreation. To some it may be of historical interest in that it was the first/last, the biggest or the smallest, the best remaining example of a type, been involved in some historically significant event, was the fastest, or just had a long career and was just scuttled anonymously with nothing at all to mark her passing. Regardless of it's history a shipwreck, no matter what it's state is when it is found, is a time capsule.

To archeologists, both wet and dry, a shipwreck is a treasure trove of technology and sociology. They are a snap shot of the way life was at the time of the sinking. The purpose of a survey is just a fact finding mission. Physical measurements are taken, items a cataloged, videos and photos are taken mostly in an effort to identify the ship and attach it to its history and give it life again. Once the datum has been collected, collated and studied only then, and infrequently at that, it may be decided to do a controlled cull of certain artifacts if it is determined that it may be beneficial for preservation or necessary to rescue a unique artifact. This is weighed very seriously as not only must the artifact be removed correctly but the the removing agency must have the capability of conserving it as well. For this reason alone most survey sites are left intact by archeologists as far more can be learned from leaving a site complete as it can be studied in context.

I first learned of this wreck from some guys from Brighton who came into our shop about three years ago and were bragging that they were diving this great wreck but despite our offer to video the site for them they declined to take us out. Two years ago the same group admitted taking items off the wreck to be 'conserved' and then returned to the wreck. (yeah right). Last year it was rumored that it was going to be opened up. This year the navy found it as well and let the cat out of the bag and now everyone it appears to know about it. From the pictures and video I have seen of this wreck it apparently has been vacuumed and very little of interest remains aboard or in the debris field. What is does represent is a great example of a two masted schooner that perhaps at least can be identified. From an archeological standpoint I would think that the site is now valueless.

So contrary to your belief that archeologists keep these as private wrecks to loot at leisure once a proper record has been made and the ship identified very little is to be gained by keeping a wreck out of bounds. Quite the opposite is true. Once a wreck becomes public domain it is our responsibility to police it and ensure that it remains as intact as possible. Make no mistake about it in my decade or so of diving around here I have never seen an archeologist 'rape' a wreck. The missing artifacts and damage that has been visited on the beautiful ships around Kingston has been done by always thoughtless and sometime malicious divers from our own community.

Shame on us.

Dan

 

[Scuba_Steve]

hehehehe

Quite observant TomR.

I kinda figured as much, generally speaking.

Oh to be a ling-cod on the wall, down there. What tales I could tell.

I do however appreciate the "old timers" explaining in great detail how to "bang-out" port holes.

I would have been there forever doing it my way ;-)

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Hi Steve,

It appears that you have a rather jaundiced view of what data collection and preservation efforts are about.

First and foremost you have to think of what a shipwreck represents. It is many things to many people. To some it may represent a marine disaster sometimes accompanied by the additional human tragedy of the loss of life. To some it represents a dive site for recreation. To some it may be of historical interest in that it was the first/last, the biggest or the smallest, the best remaining example of a type, been involved in some historically significant event, was the fastest, or just had a long career and was just scuttled anonymously with nothing at all to mark her passing. Regardless of it's history a shipwreck, no matter what it's state is when it is found, is a time capsule.

To archeologists, both wet and dry, a shipwreck is a treasure trove of technology and sociology. They are a snap shot of the way life was at the time of the sinking. The purpose of a survey is just a fact finding mission. Physical measurements are taken, items a cataloged, videos and photos are taken mostly in an effort to identify the ship and attach it to its history and give it life again. Once the datum has been collected, collated and studied only then, and infrequently at that, it may be decided to do a controlled cull of certain artifacts if it is determined that it may be beneficial for preservation or necessary to rescue a unique artifact. This is weighed very seriously as not only must the artifact be removed correctly but the the removing agency must have the capability of conserving it as well. For this reason alone most survey sites are left intact by archeologists as far more can be learned from leaving a site complete as it can be studied in context.

I first learned of this wreck from some guys from Brighton who came into our shop about three years ago and were bragging that they were diving this great wreck but despite our offer to video the site for them they declined to take us out. Two years ago the same group admitted taking items off the wreck to be 'conserved' and then returned to the wreck. (yeah right). Last year it was rumored that it was going to be opened up. This year the navy found it as well and let the cat out of the bag and now everyone it appears to know about it. From the pictures and video I have seen of this wreck it apparently has been vacuumed and very little of interest remains aboard or in the debris field. What is does represent is a great example of a two masted schooner that perhaps at least can be identified. From an archeological standpoint I would think that the site is now valueless.

So contrary to your belief that archeologists keep these as private wrecks to loot at leisure once a proper record has been made and the ship identified very little is to be gained by keeping a wreck out of bounds. Quite the opposite is true. Once a wreck becomes public domain it is our responsibility to police it and ensure that it remains as intact as possible. Make no mistake about it in my decade or so of diving around here I have never seen an archeologist 'rape' a wreck. The missing artifacts and damage that has been visited on the beautiful ships around Kingston has been done by always thoughtless and sometime malicious divers from our own community.

Shame on us.

Dan

Actually Dan, I just don't know what it's all about, so in a way you're correct.

All I'm simply referring to is the double-standard of the "Locators" of new wrecks.

I'm sure you know more than I what has transpired on most of these wrecks long before the likes of people like myself get to dive them.

I'm not "jaundiced" about anything. As I've mentioned, it's totally self-regulatory in reality, and since I control only myself, it's waste of my time to worry about what others are going to do.

It's simple reality, and 12 more laws on the books are going to amount to complete irrelevancy to the diver intent on bagging an artifact.

Sure, I can hope for the best, but I'm not expecting it.

I wouldn't begin to think that EVERYONE who gets on wrecks to "study" them would pillage, but it's pure denial to think it doesn't happen.

It seems Tom knows (as well as Mr Adams) what I'm saying, given his last post. It's obvious someone before the "public" got on it, had their way with it. Who would you suppose did? The survey crew would come to my mind as a pretty good candidate.

Where you draw the line of who's the "Archaologist" and who isn't to me, doesn't matter if it was someone who was apart of his crew or got the info via the study team.

History is very interesting and "neat" but it's also basically useless to 99% of our ongoing life in reality. Just like playing hockey, or wacking a white ball around making 10 Million a year. It's all B.S. when you step back and look at it for what it really is. Scuba is no different. Very interesting to discover the why and wherefore of history, but that's about where most of it's relevancy stops.

In the end, Scuba Diving isn't "Life", wrecks are wrecks (boards and nails), trinkets are trinkets, and they should not be confused with what truly matters in ones life.

It certainly isn't worth getting into a pissing match over, that's for sure.

Do you agree?

This thread, from about post #3 on, for me, has been a study of human nature and pyschology much more than about wreck preservation.

Just think of it, we treat our fellow human beings far worse than we do 100 year old pieces of stupid and completely useless lumber! Figure that logic out. We truly are a sorry sight, and yes, as you say, shame on us.

If you manage to make it down in October, I'm sure you'll see what really matters in the lives of our friends and families.

Regards

Steve

 

[GDI]

Beautiful and in Picton you say. I might have to make a northern trip home just for this one someday

 

[Mako Mark]

very cool wreck photos Darryl. Hey does anyone know anything about the s400 housing on that website, it looks like the kind of thing I would buy, but I cant make the link work.

 

[StatusMaker]

contact the owner of the site (Doug Arnberg), He is a plethura of information on dive gear I am sure he can and would be happy to help you.

 

[StatusMaker]

So contrary to your belief that archeologists keep these as private wrecks to loot at leisure once a proper record has been made and the ship identified very little is to be gained by keeping a wreck out of bounds. Quite the opposite is true. Once a wreck becomes public domain it is our responsibility to police it and ensure that it remains as intact as possible. Make no mistake about it in my decade or so of diving around here I have never seen an archeologist 'rape' a wreck. The missing artifacts and damage that has been visited on the beautiful ships around Kingston has been done by always thoughtless and sometime malicious divers from our own community.

Shame on us.

Dan

Extremely well put Dan!