No weights with steel tank unsafe?

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FredT, thanks so much, I really appreciate all the input from you guys, it has been invaluable so far. :)

I am pretty close to neutral (slightly negative) in a 3mm wetsuit fully geared up.

I'm going to do some more experimentation this weekend with my buoyancy with and without weights (I usually dive weightless) and take into consideration everything everyone has been kind enough to post here.

Thanks again guys! :D
 
You’re making the assumption that both you and your dive buddy will have wing failure during the same dive. If your buddy’s wing fails use yours and if yours fails use his. An SMB will help you lift yourself in the event of your wing failure. It will not help both of you although if there are two wing failures and your buddy is unconscious things would be dicey at best

No, I'm saying that my 30# wing has maybe five pounds of additional lift beyond my requirements at depth; perhaps less. If my wetsuit actually gives up 20# and my tank is near full (-8# swing), it actually doesn't have much to contribute.

My wing is NOT going to lift another diver anywhere from depth. If they're a few pounds negative I can probably swim up until the wetsuits regain some buoyancy. But I don't know if I can swim up 20 or 30#.

When I dove in warm (T-shirt) water, none of this stuff mattered. We all used Al 80s and wore a very few pounds of lead. Buoyancy didn't vary all that much from top to bottom so controlling ascents was trivial. This wetsuit stuff requires a little more thought.

For wetsuit divers, getting positive on the surface is pretty easy - dump the weights. Just be sure to have some. For warm water divers things are more difficult if there are no ditchable weights.

These are just a couple of the things I have been thinking about. Others will approach it differently.

One other thought: I have no idea how to operate a drysuit. I don't own one, I have never used one and. if I had to rescue someone who was wearing one. things would probably turn south.

Richard
 
If they are 20# negative and I can't ditch their weight, one of us isn't coming up.
One other thought: I have no idea how to operate a drysuit. I don't own one, I have never used one and. if I had to rescue someone who was wearing one. things would probably turn south.
No offense Richard, but if I ever need to be rescued, I REALLY hope someone else is available.
I suppose you could just ditch your gear and use the wetsuit for flotation, but that would be really expensive.
Just food for thought, but if you had a reel, you could attach it to the rig before dropping it and, if you had a SMB, attach it to the free end and have what would essentially be a buoy marking your gear and helping to hold you in position until help arrived. It might not be practical, but I might give it a try one of these days to see if it's workable.
If your wetsuit loses 20# of buoyancy at depth, by definition, you are 20# overweighted at that depth. There's nothing you can do about it, you are overweighted.
There IS something you can do about it, if you take proactive solutions into account. What you can do, upon recognizing that you have an issue, is prevent it. If your wetsuit loses buoyancy to the point that it becomes a problem, stop diving to those depths wet. Either get a drysuit, etc. to provide static gas volume and redundant buoyancy, accept the risks, or don't dive that deep. I've also seen some older books on diving that advocate removing some weight at depth and hanging it on the line for recovery during ascent, but that obviously introduces new risks (can't get back to the line and have to make a buoyant ascent) that might well be considered unacceptable.

I don't think an SMB or lift bag is going to help. How do you manipulate your buoyancy, the victim's buoyancy (assume their bladder is hosed), hold the reg in their mouth, maintain control of their body and still mess with a bag?
I don't think you're right. It would certainly take practice, but if it were me, I'd dump the gas from my wing (if any), open both drysuit dump valves (if any) and use the bag to control both of our ascents, so there would only be one air space to manage.

More likely though, I'd just use my wing and drysuit to provide the lift. More likely still, if my buddy's wing failed, he'd be able to use his own drysuit for buoyancy and aside from seeing his inflator hose get "the bird", I probably won't even hear about the issue until he started bitching about his #@$&! wing on the surface.

It would certainly be a more complex rescue if it were an unconsious diver with a compromised wing, but multiple failure scenarios are always more of a challenge. If it were just a wing failure, I wouldn't expect to have to hold anyone's reg in.

But not being able to get positive at the surface without ditching the rig does not improve the odds.
IMHO, the important thing in an emergency is that you're able to stay buoyant at the surface. Who gives a flying rat part how you do it, so long as it works well. If you're concerned with being able to rescue someone, I recommend looking past "plan A". I can think of a half dozen ways to get someone overweighted to the boat using the gear I typically have with me, and could confidently adapt to their equipment set up if I need to do it.
I think the AL80 is the way to go for you with your buoyancy characteristics, especially since it doesn't appear that you need the extra volume of steel tanks. The tank should fit the type of diving you do and AL80 seems to be perfect fit in this case.
I agree. It doesn't necessarily need to be an AL80, but you shouldn't be diving with gear that causes you to be overweighted without a clear plan for establishing buoyancy when you need to. Sometimes ditchable weight is the right answer for a given situation... other times, it might be redundant buoyancy like a dual bladder wing, drysuit, or (though I wouldn't consider it anything better than a backup plan) a SMB or lift bag.
 
No offense Richard, but if I ever need to be rescued, I REALLY hope someone else is available.

Me too! I actually went to my LDS and had them explain how to vent a drysuit just in case I needed to know.

But the nice thing about drysuits is the redundant buoyancy. They are absolutely the way to go. Except for the cost...

Richard
 
For wetsuit divers, getting positive on the surface is pretty easy - dump the weights. Just be sure to have some. For warm water divers things are more difficult if there are no ditchable weights.


Richard

Statements like these make me question the poster - exactly what does "just be sure to have some" mean? If you don't need weights, are you proposing just strapping some on, just to "have some"?

Again....Part I of this entire equation is to weight yourself properly. That might, in itself, eliminate Part II of the question.
 
Statements like these make me question the poster - exactly what does "just be sure to have some" mean? If you don't need weights, are you proposing just strapping some on, just to "have some"?

Again....Part I of this entire equation is to weight yourself properly. That might, in itself, eliminate Part II of the question.

Of course not. OTOH, If a diver needs some weight, make some of it ditchable. Maybe not all of it but at least a few pounds. Get the weighting correct but have some of it ditchable; That's all I said.

Why are you so against ditchable weight?

If the diver doesn't need weights then that is a different issue. But if the reason they don't need weight is because they are using a steel tank and steel backplate then maybe there is a better configuration.

How a diver chooses to guarantee they are positive at the surface can be from a myriad of options. Whatever they decide...

As I dive in cold water with a wetsuit, none of this matters. I will always have a lot of ditchable weight as long as I use a single tank.

Richard
 
No sweat my friend, I am not opposed to ditchable weight, I am just a proponent of proper weighting in the first place.

There are many sins that dive instructors commit in the development of new divers, but without a doubt, over-weighting them is number one. Perhaps they find it easier to make sure they all sink, then deal with buoyancy below, or whatever, but it is a point we make with our students - "look at all the lead the others are wearing!" Point being, the physics don't lie - if you can sink, you can sink - no awards are given for being the first one down.

If the instructor would take the time to develop a proper sense of weighting into the very first dive then there would be no need to design or sell classes such as Peak Performance Buoyancy. And of course the lead industry would suffer, cause the average diver would only buy about a third of what they would otherwise.

And of course with excess weight comes excess air in BCD, makeing bubble management loom as an even bigger monster as the diver changes depths and bouyancy characteristics.

But all kidding aside, if you need the weight, then by all means make some or most of it ditchable. But, if you don't need it, then leave it home (or on your LDS's shelves).
 
It's very nice to talk about being properly weighted but the devil is in the details. If your wetsuit loses 20# of buoyancy at depth, by definition, you are 20# overweighted at that depth. There's nothing you can do about it, you are overweighted. Compound this with a tank that swings 8# and, by definition, you are 8# overweighted at the start of the dive. Again, nothing you can do about it.

Come on, Richard, stop this nonsense. Everyone knows that wetsuits compress and gas has weight. Overweighted simply means diving with more weight than you need to get down and stay down at the end of the dive.
 
Personally I would not dive with no ditchable weight. Why remove one lifesaving bailout for yourself.

There was a case some time ago of a diver diving doubles who forgot to turn his air on. He sank and drowned and was found on the bottom. Had he dumped his weights early he may have saved himself.

I once had a failure of my BC fortunately on entry in a shore dive. Had this happened off a boat one way to extricate is to dump weights and abort the dive. In this case my mistake was not checking the BC to make sure it holds air, but the point is: you can't count on never making mistakes.

And you can't always count on being able to swim up against a negative buoyancy, especially since the deeper you get the more negatively buoyant you become and the more difficult it is to breathe. In the example I cited the diver had no air to be able to swim up.

Adam
 
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