PADI and Universal Referrals

[Otter]

Hello,

I just made reservations to do my OW dives in Florida with a PADI shop. I did my pool and classwork with an SSI shop. I'm using the PADI shop in Florida because 1)hubby did his there and loved it; 2) I've snorkeled with them and loved it.

Now I am wondering that since I won't get a temporary PADI card, will I be able to dive after completing my OW dives???

I hope so because I will be there for 4 nights with 2 days to dive after completion of the course.

In reading your original question, I jumped to the only solution that I believe is available to you....convert to PADI and be certified after your 4th dive.

From PADI's website...

Upon completion of the open water divers under the Universal Referral process and issuance of a Universal Referral Temporary Card, can I consider the individual a certified diver?

This is a decision that is left to the individual dive center/resort or instructor. As with other certification agency credentials, PADI does not determine which agencies' certifications should be honored or recognized and which ones should not.

So the best place to check is where you will be diving to see if they are going to treat you as a certified diver or not after the 4th dive.

 

[Drew Sailbum]

A few months ago I had an angry SDI instructor call me up saying he would only send us referrals if I promised not to convret them to PADI divers which meant that he lost the certification credit. I told him we had to convert them and then recieved a phonecall from the training director of TDI/SDI pointing out an overlooked standards clarification that says PADI instructors CAN just sign the URP paperwork and do not have to issue a PADI PIC.

You can do this for SDI. Their paperwork clearly states that any active instructor can sign off the dives. SDI does not participate in the Universal Referral Program.

To sign off a student with Universal Referral paperwork, you are supposed to be affiliated with the URP through the referral program of one of the participating agencies. Otherwise, you should still do the crossover.

Oddly, the few times that the initiating instructor does bother to initiate the referral with us, it is usually to ask that we not do a crossover.

 

[TheRedHead]

.The OW dives, especially the last dive is the test. I require some things that I feel are important that some other instructors may not. Without witnessing them I can't sign the diver off.

Bass are wonderful fish to watch and look much more like fish than those silly colored, funny shaped things in the ocean so watch it!

I have nothing against bass, really. I've seen lots of them both in and out of the water. Bass are smart fish. Now, those little leg nipping bream I can do without. I've had the pleasure of stepping on a catfish, seen cottonmouths, been eaten up by misquotoes, gotten poison ivy several times. Since I've already experienced all the pleasures of freshwater lakes, I thought it would be nice for a change to see the saltier side.

When I signed up for the class I stated very plainly that I wanted to do my open water in Marathon. They told me it was no problem. Since the original dive shop I contacted doesn't know whether or not they can issue temp card, I chickened out and found an SSI shop in Marathon, Abyss Diving, and signed up there. They assured me they can issue a temp card. I really love the middle Florida Keys. Everyone goes to Key Largo and Key West and the Middle Keys are much less crowded with divers.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I think the act of going back to the original LDS with the paperwork is just a ploy to get you back in the shop to sign up for another class, book a trip or buy one more thing. It also keeps divers within their original agencies, and I suppose the dive shop has an interest in that. I suppose also there are legal ramifications, but I don't want to think about those.

Going to Florida, getting my OW certification and not being able to dive for 2 days would be like coitus interruptus. It would drive me insane.

I'm so excited about it! I hope I can see Samantha the Nurse Shark this time.

Thanks for all the help. This is a great board.

 

[spthomas]

A lot of the confusion here is that PADI is not actually part of the Universal Referral. As the Universal Referral website says (www.universalreferral.com):

News Release: PADI Instructors Can Accept Universal Referral Form
May 2003 - Universal Referral Program makes Referral Training “Customer Friendly”

The Universal Referral Program (URP) is a customer-oriented program designed to facilitate completion of open water training for students who travel for their training dives. According to a recent Professional Association of Diving Instructors (PADI) Training Bulletin, PADI instructors can now accept Universal Referral Program students.

The member organizations of the Universal Referral Program would like to extend their sincere appreciation to PADI, and to encourage all PADI instructors to take advantage of the new policy.

"In a Training Bulletin issued second quarter of 2003, the Professional Association of Diving Instructors announced that PADI instructors "…complete the open water dives as outlined in the Universal guidelines and send the diver back to the original instructor for certification." PADI instructors now have the option of completing referrals for students possessing Universal Referral paperwork. According to PADI, members can look on the Member website for complete details or contact an educational consultant for additional information. The bulletin further stated that PADI insurance offered through Vicencia and Buckley covers the receiving PADI instructor for Universal Referral open water training."

So, The Universal Referral "drill" was set up and has been in place since 1998, but until last fall PADI didn't participate. So it's still a bit confusing I think. SSI facilities, for example, can either be the Originating shop or Referral shop. PADI shops can accept Universal Referral students as a Referral location, but don't send students to UR shops, only to PADI shops.

Since UR has been around since 1998, I have little doubt that MEMBER shops will honor your temporary card. But, since PADI is very new in this program, and not a full participant really, they're sort of cautious at this stage.

I really feel that none of the mainstream agencies are "better" than the others, not really. The Instructor makes the difference, not the Agency. That said, no shop wants to teach students, only to see them go off and get certified by another agency (they obviously have some loyalty to their agency, else they'd be with someone else!), which is what happened before UR. Now, the originating shop and agency gets the student back, after "subcontracting" the open water dives to a shop in place where people really WANT to dive (not that freshwater in December isn't fun...).

At the heart of UR is a trust factor, between shops/agencies, that they will all uphold the relevant standards. PADI is still in the "we don't know you well enough to trust you" stage with UR, and that's normal I think.

=Steve=

 

[Marek K]

I know this is an old thread, but I've been studying it closely because of the situation I find myself in now -- almost identical to Redhatmama's at the start of this thread. Wow... a lot of confusion about this.

Our daughter is now taking an SSI JOWD course -- the three other members of our family are all PADI.

We're planning on doing her open-water certification dives when we go to the Red Sea in Egypt this July. But the dive operation where we're going is PADI; there are no SSI operations within reach. So we're going to have to do some kind of inter-agency referral.

The PADI dive shop there (a German-run operation) insists that if we want our daughter to continue diving for the rest of the two-week vacation after the certification dives, which we of course absolutely do want, then we have to cross her over to PADI Open Water with them. That means doing the four dives, taking the PADI exam (PADI dive tables are a bit different from SSI's), and paying a certification fee. Total will be 210 Euros (160 for the dives and exam, and 50 for the cert).

The dive operation says they're not familiar with the Universal Referral Program. I've just e-mailed them the URP website address, as well as a copy of the URP referral form to make sure they'll accept it -- even for the PADI crossover they insist on doing.

How usual or unusual is this? I realize PADI operations are not required to participate in the URP, or therefore to issue URP temporary cards. But is this a tactic to "steal" certifications from a competing agency, and make some extra money at the same time? Or is it really believable that these guys don't know about the URP? Yes, I do know what "PADI" stands for...

Any other unanticipated glitches we could run into with a referral like this, that we need to check out before we travel?

--Marek

 

[Divesherpa]

Hey Mike,
I have been taking part in the URP recently. I found the experience quite pleasing. The PADI referrals are more of a pain than the Universal's. I don't teach in OW for OW classes. I don't turn students loose from Confined Water until they are ready for OW. Other instructors seem to agree as the last two were awesome. These guys were prepared and it showed.

On the flip side, I would not allow someone else to do my OW dives as that is my favorite part. I get to have fun too!!

Then again, my OW classes are a little unorthodox.

 

[sweatfrog]

The information below comes straight from the PADI website. I was also talking to the training director at NAUI about this, because I got a Universal Referral to sign off for one of my students. He said that if you started with PADI, stay with PADI to eliminate any problems. I've also seen that occur with NAUI recently. If I haven't seen someone's certification dives, I don't want my name on their card.

PADI is not a proponent of “universal” or “global” referrals for several reasons. Some of these are described in detail below. Generally, our legal advice has been that it will be difficult to defend, especially because the certifying instructor has not seen the student in the open water, and it can result (and has resulted) in customer service problems for the diver. However, if you choose to participate in this referral system, please make an informed choice.

How does the Universal Referral process work?

A student diver presents you with a “universal” or “global” referral. The student diver has taken his initial training through another training organization. The instructions on the form will direct you to conduct open water dives as outlined on the form and sign a statement on the referral document verifying that the student completed the dives. The student then carries the form back to his original instructor who is supposed to certify the student through his organization.

What is PADI’s position on the Universal or Global referral approach, and why?

PADI’s position on the Universal Referral program (and similar approaches) as regards divers receiving PADI credentials through such a process has also remained unchanged since the program was first presented to the RSTC in 1995. This position is based upon recommendations from legal counsel regarding the difficulty (perhaps impossibility) of defending a lawsuit resulting from a “universal” style referral process. The questions of how an instructor from one agency can be familiar enough with the standards and training requirements of a different agency to defend his actions; of how the referring (certifying) instructor can ascertain that the person conducting the open water dives was even a current, qualified instructor at the time the open water training occurred; of how the certifying organization can maintain any quality control whatsoever on the instructor conducting the open water training or have any reasonable way to know that its required open water skills were performed correctly by the student it will certify; etc.

One of diving’s most experienced attorneys, William Turbeville, as part of his analysis of the program for PADI, wrote this regarding the issue of an instructor authorizing certification for a diver whose open water training had been conducted by someone else: “It will be considerably more difficult to defend a claim of inadequate instruction if that instructor has never seen that student doing the single most important part of that student’s training – actually scuba diving.”

Upon completion of the open water divers under the Universal Referral process and issuance of a Universal Referral Temporary Card, can I consider the individual a certified diver?

This is a decision that is left to the individual dive center/resort or instructor. As with other certification agency credentials, PADI does not determine which agencies' certifications should be honored or recognized and which ones should not.

If I refer my diver to complete training dives elsewhere, may I certify the person as a PADI Diver when he returns back to me?

No. Under PADI standards, only the instructor who conducts the open water portion of the course can certify the student. If you were to issue a PADI certification to anyone that you have not personally trained in an open water environment, it would be serious standards violation.

May I complete open water dives via the “universal” or “global” referral process and send the diver back to the originating instructor for certification?

Choosing to conduct a nonPADI program is completely up to you. These types of referrals are not within the scope of PADI standards and programs. Therefore, whether or not you accept them is your business choice. PADI recommends that you fully inform yourself before making such a decision by thoroughly researching the issue.

What problems have arisen from PADI Instructors accepting a “universal” or “global” referral?

So far we have seen customer service issues as well as potential liability issues that may arise after diving accidents suffered by two different Universal Referral divers. The customer service matter was that Universal Referral students had their open water dives conducted by a PADI Instructor, but the original instructor subsequently refused to issue their certifications. The students were understandably upset at everyone involved.

The accident issues are potentially far more serious. The “Universal Referral Manual” provides for two seemingly contradictory circumstances. Students completing the open water dives are given a temporary card that is “valid for 30 days.” On the other hand, the manual also states that it is the original instructor who will issue the certification. The core question that results is whether or not the students being referred are considered qualified to dive once their open water training dives have been completed, but prior to their original instructor issuing certification. Further, it’s possible that these divers may not receive their certification upon returning home.

These issues may be litigated. The two divers, after completing their Universal Referral open water training dives, went diving in the days following the open water training and suffered accidents. If there is litigation, the questions of which party is responsible – the original instructor and his dive store, the open water instructor and his resort, the resort that let them dive on the temporary cards, the original instructor’s agency, the open water instructor’s agency or some combination of all of them – are immense. This entire issue is complex and you should be aware of these possibilities.

Will insurance offered through Vicencia and Buckley cover me if I participate in “universal” or “global” referrals?

Yes, if you are the receiving instructor for a “Universal” or “Global” referral student and you do the open water training, you’re covered.

How can a student diver with a "Universal" or "Global" referral earn a PADI certification?

PADI has procedures for accepting referred divers from other organizations to result in PADI certification. You can find this procedure in the “Open Water Diver Course Instructor Guide,: under the section entitled Accepting Referral Students from Certification Organizations Other Than PADI.


Send all comments and suggestions to webmaster@padi.com
©2005 International PADI, Inc.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Every single student that I have given a Universal Refferal paper to that has gone to a PADI shop has always been issued a PADI card even though they did an SSI course. They are supposed to return with their paperwork to me but they do not. I feel this is PADI just ripping off other agencies in order to pad their own statistics.

So I ask my students to return with their own paperwork and to not allow the PADI shop to steal them away. If the shop refuses they they know they are shady. Recently one of my students said they had to go to a 3rd shop before one would agree to allow them to hang onto their own paperwork.

 

[Marek K]

The information below comes straight from the PADI website. I was also talking to the training director at NAUI about this, because I got a Universal Referral to sign off for one of my students. He said that if you started with PADI, stay with PADI to eliminate any problems. I've also seen that occur with NAUI recently. If I haven't seen someone's certification dives, I don't want my name on their card. [...]

Hmmm... You obviously got that from the instructors' part of the PADI web site, which isn't available to me. Thanks very much; it really clears up PADI's position. It is complicated, isn't it? I can understand an instructor not wanting to certify a student without seeing his/her open-water dives... and that's what an SSI (in this case) instructor would be doing, when the student comes back to be actually certified with the referring SSI instructor.

And I can also see the contradiction -- if the student isn't actually certified until he/she goes back home to the referring instructor, how can the warm-water PADI facility conducting the OW dives issue a temporary card that implies certification?

Every single student that I have given a Universal Refferal paper to that has gone to a PADI shop has always been issued a PADI card even though they did an SSI course. They are supposed to return with their paperwork to me but they do not. I feel this is PADI just ripping off other agencies in order to pad their own statistics.

So I ask my students to return with their own paperwork and to not allow the PADI shop to steal them away. If the shop refuses they they know they are shady. Recently one of my students said they had to go to a 3rd shop before one would agree to allow them to hang onto their own paperwork.

And I can certainly understand your point of view...

But in our case, the referring SSI facility here is getting 90% of the full fee from us -- they only took off 10% for not having to do the OW dives. I think they got a pretty good deal from us.

I understand that they'd want to get the certification here for their own statistics, but... as I understand it, with the paperwork that I assume the PADI facility will complete, the SSI facility at home will still be able to certify our daughter as an SSI JOWD. She'd then just have JOWD certifications from both PADI and SSI.

Again, in our case, without going along with the PADI certification in Egypt, there's no way our daughter is going to be able to dive for the remaining week and a half that we're there. I don't agree that that's necessarily shadiness...

--Marek

 

[sweatfrog]

Hmmm... You obviously got that from the instructors' part of the PADI web site, which isn't available to me. Thanks very much; it really clears up PADI's position. It is complicated, isn't it? I can understand an instructor not wanting to certify a student without seeing his/her open-water dives... and that's what an SSI (in this case) instructor would be doing, when the student comes back to be actually certified with the referring SSI instructor.

And I can also see the contradiction -- if the student isn't actually certified until he/she goes back home to the referring instructor, how can the warm-water PADI facility conducting the OW dives issue a temporary card that implies certification?

And I can certainly understand your point of view...

But in our case, the referring SSI facility here is getting 90% of the full fee from us -- they only took off 10% for not having to do the OW dives. I think they got a pretty good deal from us.

I understand that they'd want to get the certification here for their own statistics, but... as I understand it, with the paperwork that I assume the PADI facility will complete, the SSI facility at home will still be able to certify our daughter as an SSI JOWD. She'd then just have JOWD certifications from both PADI and SSI.

Again, in our case, without going along with the PADI certification in Egypt, there's no way our daughter is going to be able to dive for the remaining week and a half that we're there. I don't agree that that's necessarily shadiness...

--Marek

The whole "Universal Referral" program is a big can of worms. It makes everyone mad and the blame falls onto the agency that doesn't allow it. Even though they have grounds to stand on legally and certify more than most of the other agencies combined.

It needs to be explained by the referring Instructor, but people going on vacation don't always listen, many don't even know the trip particulars. Instructors need to adhere to the standards, or this sport will be headed backwards quickly.

For anyone to blame PADI for their own inadequite procedures isn't the answer.