PADI and Universal Referrals

[Marek K]

For anyone to blame PADI for their own inadequite procedures isn't the answer.

Randy--

You're addressing this to me, but you're really talking to Al, aren't you?

OK, you're obviously a PADI instructor... Like I said, seeing as this PADI dive operation in Egypt doesn't seem to know about or recognize the URP, my main concern right now is that they accept my daughter's SSI classroom and pool work on a referral basis at all -- toward a PADI cert. They indicate that they will, but should a filled-out URP form work?

Or is a referral (showing classroom and pool work) even necessary in that case? Maybe anyone could just walk in off the street with the necessary knowledge and skills, pass the PADI exam and the OW dives, and get certified?

--Marek

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Or is a referral (showing classroom and pool work) even necessary in that case? Maybe anyone could just walk in off the street with the necessary knowledge and skills, pass the PADI exam and the OW dives, and get certified?

--Marek

Pay And Dive Instantly right?

I just did a UR for 2 Naui students, they are getting Naui cards as they should. It would be so easy to just send in for SSI cards wouldn't it?

But I'm not shady

 

[Marek K]

Pay And Dive Instantly right?

No, that's not what I meant... I'm actually defending PADI here...

What I meant was, if you boil it down, is there a bottom-line requirement that a person go through classroom and pool instruction (and have proof of that), in order to get certified? Say for instance an old-time diver had been diving his whole life without a C-card... learned on his own how to do it right (doh, did I just say that?)... was getting air fills, etc... and now wanted a C-card for whatever reason. Could he walk into an agency (say, to you at SSI), just do the exam and the OW dives, and get certified?

Or, in our case, could a new student diligently do their classroom and pool work with SSI, and just show up out of the blue at a PADI facility... and get certified by just passing the exam and the OW dives?

I just did a UR for 2 Naui students, they are getting Naui cards as they should. It would be so easy to just send in for SSI cards wouldn't it? But I'm not shady

OK, but NAUI and SSI are "founding members" of the URP, and the reciprocity is I'm sure much better. That's what "should" happen, because those agencies have agreed from the beginning to do that.

It's different with PADI... PADI has only agreed to join URP sort of halfway... they allow (don't require) their instructors to conduct URP OW dives, and apparently allow (don't require) those instructors to issue temporary cards -- even if the PADI instructor isn't certifying the diver.

I agree with you (I'm sure) that PADI's allowance of the URP is probably a smart marketing move on their part... their instructors get the opportunity to make money on the OW dives, and also the opportunity to try to cross a student over to PADI. But, hey, they're the Big Dog, and they're taking advantage of that. I'm not sure there's anything evil or dishonest about that.

Look, if all we needed were the OW certification dives, it would be very easy for us (very easy!) to save the hassle of taking the PADI exam and the 50-Euro PADI certification fee by having our SSI facility do the cert when we get home. And the PADI facility in Egypt would let me do that. But I certainly understand their position, not wanting to issue a temporary card when they're not certifying our daughter. Would you?

So tell me... I obviously don't understand the inner-workings of instructing... what loss is it to you if PADI "steals" the certification away from you? You still get paid for the instruction. How significant is chalking up the actual cert? And why couldn't a student come back to you even with their PADI cert, and get an SSI cert from you? They will have already paid for it... or not?

--Marek

 

[sweatfrog]

Randy-- you're obviously a PADI instructor... Like I said, seeing as this PADI dive operation in Egypt doesn't seem to know about or recognize the URP, my main concern right now is that they accept my daughter's SSI classroom and pool work on a referral basis at all -- toward a PADI cert. They indicate that they will, but should a filled-out URP form work?

Yes Marek, I'm a PADI Instructor and if I were certifying your daughter, I would check the paperwork first. Then I'd require her to take the final, evaluate her pool skills, do the required dives and certify her.

Or is a referral (showing classroom and pool work) even necessary in that case? Maybe anyone could just walk in off the street with the necessary knowledge and skills, pass the PADI exam and the OW dives, and get certified?--Marek

That's called an experienced diver certification and has additional hurdles that do not allow a new diver to participate. In fact, the price of the beginning class is so reasonable that I tell those people to go that route and learn about the new equipment available now.

You're addressing this to me

You seem to be a reasonable, intellegent and very articulate individual Marek. You're also the person who restarted this thread, so my posts have been addressed to you, to avoid the inevitable flame. LOL

 

[Marek K]

You seem to be a reasonable, intellegent and very articulate individual Marek.

Thank ya. Thank ya vurra much.

You're also the person who restarted this thread, so my posts have been addressed to you, to avoid the inevitable flame. LOL

Not working very well, is it?

Actually, no-one's exactly flaming you or PADI... just sort of warming you up maybe...

Anyway, thanks for the info reassuring me that a URP referral form, and the info on it, should work. (Yes, I did notice you didn't guarantee anything...)

--Marek

 

[Kriterian]

I'm confused on the PADI questions. According to the original poster, he or she did their class/pool work at an SSI facility (meaning they're going for an SSI certification), and are doing their open water work at a PADI facility.

Wouldn't the SSI instructor just give him or her an Universal Referral form to be filled out at the PADI resort (facility) in Florida? Then when they return, they'll bring back the UR form and get their SSI official card?

 

[Marek K]

I'm confused on the PADI questions. According to the original poster, he or she did their class/pool work at an SSI facility (meaning they're going for an SSI certification), and are doing their open water work at a PADI facility.

Wouldn't the SSI instructor just give him or her an Universal Referral form to be filled out at the PADI resort (facility) in Florida? Then when they return, they'll bring back the UR form and get their SSI official card?

Hey, welcome to being confused. Have a seat right here next to me.

To review the bidding, redhatmama's original situation was substantially identical to our daughter's... doing classroom and pool work at home with an SSI facility, and the OW dives being done at a warm-water PADI facility -- in redhatmama's case in Florida, and in my daughter's case in Egypt.

Yes, like you say, each of them could get a Universal Referral to the PADI facility, do the dives, and bring the completed paperwork back home to get SSI certifications. The problem is getting temporary Q-cards so they can continue diving for the remainder of the vacation. Redhatmama was wondering whether she could do that; I've already been told my daughter can't. In order to continue diving in Egypt, my daughter will have to crossover to a PADI certification (exam and dives), in order to get a (PADI) temporary Q-card from the PADI facility in Egypt.

As I understand it, redhatmama solved her dilemma last year by deciding to take her entire OWD course in Florida with an SSI facility -- and getting her temp card there.

In contrast, our daughter is going to have to finish up her SSI classroom and pool work here, since she's already started that; and take the PADI exam and OW dives with the PADI facility in Egypt this summer, in order to get issued a temp card there so she can continue diving on vacation.

--Marek

 

[Drew Sailbum]

What I meant was, if you boil it down, is there a bottom-line requirement that a person go through classroom and pool instruction (and have proof of that), in order to get certified?

Yes - sort of. And by signing a URP referral form the initiating instructor is stating that all classroom and confined water training has been completed.

Say for instance an old-time diver had been diving his whole life without a C-card... learned on his own how to do it right (doh, did I just say that?)... was getting air fills, etc... and now wanted a C-card for whatever reason. Could he walk into an agency (say, to you at SSI), just do the exam and the OW dives, and get certified?

That's the exception. PADI has provisions for an experienced diver to bypass some stuff. IIRC, the final exam is still required and a pool assessment should be mandatory but I'm not sure if it's required. This option is rarely used. I've never used it.

Or, in our case, could a new student diligently do their classroom and pool work with SSI, and just show up out of the blue at a PADI facility... and get certified by just passing the exam and the OW dives?

Yup. Definitely. Happens all the time. Just bring that referral form - matters not if the form says SSI, NAUI, ABC or XYZ or Universal Referral.

And the PADI facility in Egypt would let me do that. But I certainly understand their position, not wanting to issue a temporary card when they're not certifying our daughter. Would you?

No way! Couldn't pay me enough!

So tell me... I obviously don't understand the inner-workings of instructing... what loss is it to you if PADI "steals" the certification away from you?

Market share? Who certifies more divers? That subtle impact of seeing PADI on the certification card every time you pull it out of your wallet and sign up for a dive? A collective corporate chest thumping?

As a finer point, PADI does require certain numbers of certifications for an instructor to advance in the instructor hierarchy. Certification counts really don't matter at all to a PADI instructor unless he/she wants to teach courses for Assistant Instructor and higher levels. Not sure about other agencies.

 

[Marek K]

OK, I think we're set... The (German) PADI dive operation in Egypt had e-mailed me and said they didn't know what URP was, and that had me worried. So I e-mailed them a copy of the URP referral form, and they basically said, "Oh, yeah! We accept referrals like this from SSI all the time! We just didn't know it was called 'URP'..."

We'll still have to do a crossover to a PADI JOWD certification there for our daughter, so she can get a temporary card right away and continue diving there.

Two more questions...

First, I'm just a touch concerned about her doing the PADI exam, after she goes through the SSI course. I'm familiar with PADI, and the knowledge and skills are almost identical... but the layout is a bit different. (I keep thinking about the question on the PADI test, asking in what order you should react to a low-on-air or OOA situation... normal surfacing, alternate reg with buddy and then ascend, CESA, buoyant ascent... PADI spells that out, but from what I see SSI doesn't.) Anyone have any experience in this? How should we prepare her for the PADI test? I figure we'll have her watch the PADI video; then -- after her SSI exam -- run through the PADI Knowledge Reviews, quizzes, and practice tests. If she can do those, she should be good to go.

Second, to be fair to our SSI shop at home, I do want to come back to them afterwards and have them give her an SSI certification too. That should be no problem, right?

--Marek

 

[sweatfrog]

I'm just a touch concerned about her doing the PADI exam, after she goes through the SSI course. I'm familiar with PADI, and the knowledge and skills are almost identical... but the layout is a bit different. (I keep thinking about the question on the PADI test, asking in what order you should react to a low-on-air or OOA situation... normal surfacing, alternate reg with buddy and then ascend, CESA, buoyant ascent... PADI spells that out, but from what I see SSI doesn't.) Anyone have any experience in this? How should we prepare her for the PADI test? I figure we'll have her watch the PADI video; then -- after her SSI exam -- run through the PADI Knowledge Reviews, quizzes, and practice tests. If she can do those, she should be good to go.

You got it.
No - Normal ascent
Air - Alternate Air Ascent
Can - Controlled Emergency swimming ascent
Be - Buddy breathing ascent
Bad - Buoyant emergency swimming ascent

To be fair to our SSI shop at home, I do want to come back to them afterwards and have them give her an SSI certification too. That should be no problem, right?--Marek

It skews the certification numbers, but thats not a big deal and its done all the time.