PADI and Universal Referrals

[rjhartman]

I am a Dive Shop Owner and am both a PADI & SSI instructor. As a Dive Shop owner, I prefer when my Universal Referrals are returned to me. Someone else mentioned about Instructor Credits. At this point in my career, I do not need any more Instructor Credits. The main reason I like to have the Universal Referrals returned is that I get direct feedback from the refered customer about their Referral Instructor or Facility. I like to know that if the next customer that walks through my door wants to go to perform their certifcation by referal, then I have a list of places that have done well by my previous customers. The ones that get PADI-ised, I rarely see again. The ones that bring the paperwork back, tend to be the ones that go on future trips (with or without the LDS) and stay active in the sport. Ultimately, they started off as the customer of the LDS and hopefully will remain a customer of that facility.

Problems that I have encountered in the past is that the students on referal that are processed at the destination is that they either never receive their C-Cards from the resort destination or have an error on the card (wrong picture, typos, wrong level, etc). This is not the norm, but does happen from time to time and can be difficult to rectify. When the student returns to their LDS, it is their home base. They will have someone locally to follow up with if there is a problem with their C-Card.

Also, I have had students that were processed by the Internation Affiliate of the destination training agency and not the US Headquarters. The Training agencies have gotten better about co-ordinating this information, but sometimes when a student looses their card and they want to get a replacement it can be difficult tracking down their original information to verify they are a certified diver. When the student returns to their LDS, they are gauranteed to be certified by the US Headquarters and should never have a problem getting a replacement again.

This is just my perspective on it as a Dive Shop Owner. There have been some interesting points raised, but I ultimately think it is better for the Diver to return all paperwork to the initiating facility to prevent any mistakes and there is someone to follow up with them.

 

[dl348]

I'm confused on the PADI questions. According to the original poster, he or she did their class/pool work at an SSI facility (meaning they're going for an SSI certification), and are doing their open water work at a PADI facility.

Wouldn't the SSI instructor just give him or her an Universal Referral form to be filled out at the PADI resort (facility) in Florida? Then when they return, they'll bring back the UR form and get their SSI official card?

That was my understanding of the situation as well. This whole thing is getting a little bit over the top!!!!!!

 

[lowwall]

Dare I say PADI has a point? The URP procedure of having the CW instructor sign off on the certification leaves that instructor wide open from a liability standpoint. After all, you are essentially perjuring yourself every time you certify that a diver meets all necessary requirements when you have no firsthand knowledge that he or she does.

An instructor who has substantial assets (e.g., a dive shop owner) would be nuts to do this. Actually, even an instructor who has no assets shouldn't touch these, you might not be poor forever.

Frankly, I would be surprised if this aspect of URP will survive. Instructor or agency insurers will shut it down the first time an adverse outcome makes its way through the courts.

The URP agencies could easily solve this problem by giving instructors some sort of partial credit for completing CW instruction and then letting the OW instructor issue the cert. The only possible loser in this is the referring dive shop, which is deprived of one chance to latch on to a returning diver. But a good shop has lots of ways to bring back a diver with a little extra work (why not offer a T-shirt or other trinket if they come back and give you a report on their trip?). Anyway it's better to lose the occasional customer than to risk losing the entire shop.

IANAL, but I did do the cite checking on this little tome.

 

[Marek K]

Originally Posted by KriterianI'm confused on the PADI questions. According to the original poster, he or she did their class/pool work at an SSI facility (meaning they're going for an SSI certification), and are doing their open water work at a PADI facility.

Wouldn't the SSI instructor just give him or her an Universal Referral form to be filled out at the PADI resort (facility) in Florida? Then when they return, they'll bring back the UR form and get their SSI official card?

That was my understanding of the situation as well. This whole thing is getting a little bit over the top!!!!!!

Wow, this thread gets resurrected yet again!! (And it wasn't me this time!)

Again, the issue for the original poster, and later for my daughter, is that we needed them to be able to continue diving for a week or two at the PADI destination resort after the OW dives. Which would require, in effect, for the PADI facility to issue a temporary certification... which the facility wouldn't do in our case, and I don't really blame them. Or just close their eyes and allow the diving to take place anyway; and I don't blame them that they wouldn't do that either.

The solution in our case last summer was that we had to pay an extra 200 Euros for the PADI crossover at the resort; that paid for some (PADI) refresher instruction, the exam, the four OW dives, and the PIC. Expensive, but not horrible.

We then returned the signed URP paperwork to our daughter's SSI facility at home, and got her her SSI OW card too. So she's got OW certifications from both agencies now.

--Marek

 

[cuddlefish]

Much confusion over nothing.

PADI Instructors can do three things with a referral:
1)Student started with PADI Instructor: Referral instructor does pre-assessment as needed, and completes open water training dives to PADI standards. Student is issued a PADI temporary card and will receive the permanent card later. Referral Instructor is the certifying instructor.

2)Student started with any other agency, and is finishing as a PADI certification: Referral instructor does pre-assessment as needed, teaches additional skills as needed in pool, administers final exam, and completes open water training dives to PADI standards. Student is issued a PADI temporary card and will receive the permanent card later. Referral Instructor is the certifying instructor.

3)Student started with any other agency, and is finishing as a Universal Referral-type certification: Referral instructor does pre-assessment as needed, and completes open water training dives to the Universal Referral-type program standards. Student is issued an Universal Referral-type temporary certification card by the referral instructor, but must return paperwork to the initiating instructor for registration of permanent certification. The initiating instructor is the certifying instructor.

PADI Instructors can complete Universal Referral-type certifications, assuming they have registered, as required, with the appropriate program. They cannot issue PADI certifications through one of those referrals unless all required PADI standards are also met.

Yes, yes, yes.

This is what my dive center does all the time. We get tons of referral students every year. If they have a Universal Referral, they are issued a Universal temp card and their original instructor sends in for their actual certification card. No problem.

 

[Marek K]

This is what my dive center does all the time. We get tons of referral students every year. If they have a Universal Referral, they are issued a Universal temp card and their original instructor sends in for their actual certification card. No problem.

Cool. And the URP temp card, I assume, allow your students to continue diving (at least with you) for the remainder of their vacation, right?

But what agency is your shop associated with? I suspect not PADI; I'll bet it's one of the URP "alliance."

The issue is how a PADI operation handles an incoming URP referral -- and that's not quite as straighforward. A PADI facility can (doesn't have to) accept a URP referral and sign off on it. But despite what the URP referral form says (optimistically) on their form, I don't think a strictly-PADI operation will issue a URP temp card.

--Marek

 

[cuddlefish]

Cool. And the URP temp card, I assume, allow your students to continue diving (at least with you) for the remainder of their vacation, right?

But what agency is your shop associated with? I suspect not PADI; I'll bet it's one of the URP "alliance."

The issue is how a PADI operation handles an incoming URP referral -- and that's not quite as straighforward. A PADI facility can (doesn't have to) accept a URP referral and sign off on it. But despite what the URP referral form says (optimistically) on their form, I don't think a strictly-PADI operation will issue a URP temp card.

--Marek

We are a PADI facility. It is not our goal to convert all incoming students to PADI. Our goal is to respect the dive centers and instructors who send us their students and to help the students reach their goal of certification. We also encourage those students to go back to their original dive center for continuing education in SSI, NAUI or whatever agency they are. This creates a positive business relationship as well as good customer service. Our in-depth research has shown that we are approved liability-wise for all of this. It's a win-win situation.

 

[Reef Log]

PADI instructors can do UVR if they are part of the program. All it takes is about 30 bucks and a simple paper test to get a UVR number. In any case a temp cert card can be and should be issued when the studant completes all requirements for the particular agency. The refferal paper work is signed, given to the new diver and they take this back to the reffering instructor for certification processing.