PADI Beyond Master Scuba Diver

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Did this CD state HOW this would violate standards for the Deep Diver course or, more specifically, WHAT standard(s) would be violated by having a Deep student deploy a DSMB? Not taking issue with the statement, per se, just trying to better understand the thinking behind it.

Simply that you can't add anything and get PADI's blessing. As I stated earlier, if the student corked as a result of deploying a DSMB, had a DCS incident, and there was a lawsuit; it will be purely on the instructor. PADI will use that in their defense if they are named a defendant in the lawsuit.
 
When I took Deep course in 2007 we deployed the sausage from 120' and followed it up, reeling it in to the safety stop (in 33F water--I was diving wet). My instructor (now a CD) said it was part of the course.

I think PADI will not support you if an incident occurs when you are doing something with a student not specifically part of the course.
PADI will support you if an incident happens during required parts of the course (perhaps unless you do something stupid that goes against good judgement and local conditions/protocol--because they have to.
I think any business would follow the above.
 
When I took Deep course in 2007 we deployed the sausage from 120' and followed it up, reeling it in to the safety stop (in 33F water--I was diving wet). My instructor (now a CD) said it was part of the course.

I think PADI will not support you if an incident occurs when you are doing something with a student not specifically part of the course.
PADI will support you if an incident happens during required parts of the course (perhaps unless you do something stupid that goes against good judgement and local conditions/protocol--because they have to.
I think any business would follow the above.

Do you have your deep manual? All skills to be performed are listed. If it isn't there, it isn't part of the course.
 
Did this CD state HOW this would violate standards for the Deep Diver course or, more specifically, WHAT standard(s) would be violated by having a Deep student deploy a DSMB? Not taking issue with the statement, per se, just trying to better understand the thinking behind it.
It is pretty clear in the Deep instructor manual that deploying a DSMB on a deep dive is a good thing to do...what is NOT good is having a student do it for the first time during the four class dives. But someone taking a Deep Specialty is NOT a newbie -- they need to be AOW for example -- so the deployment of a DSMB is simply doing what the IM says. It is not a performance standard....just something to do. Here is what the IM says:
Confined water and/or surface practice sessions are not required for the PADI Deep Diver course; however, you may choose to have practical sessions that allow student divers to practice skills such as navigating with a compass, buoyancy control, safety stops, Delayed Surface Marker Buoy (DSMB) deployment, breathing from an emergency air source, reading (comparing with other divers) information from their depth gauges or dive computers.
And then:
Explain to student divers that a Delayed Surface Marker Buoy (DSMB) is a long sausage-like marker buoy, with an opening at one
end. Divers carry it deflated and rolled up in a pocket, or rolled and attached to their reels. At the end of the dive, prior to ascending, a
diver can use their alternate air source or exhaled bubbles to inflate the DSMB and send it to the surface, paying out line from their reel
as it goes. Divers can then slowly reel the line in as they ascend. Make clear that DSMBs provide divers with a visual reference as they ascend and during their safety stops. They are helpful when divers are in a current, or unable to return to the boat for any reason. They also allow boat traffic to identify divers as they begin their ascent.
And then, under Open Water conduct:
There are no required confined water and/or surface practice sessions for the PADI Deep Diver Specialty Diver course, however, developing student diver abilities in conditions that doesn’t add complexity to learning new skills such as reading (comparing with other divers)
information from depth gauges or dive computers, deploying Delayed Surface Marker Buoys (DSMBs), and controlling buoyancy at safety stops before progressing to more challenging conditions, is sound instruction. Some of the underwater skills, such as basic buoyancy control,
breathing from an emergency air source, and navigating with a compass, are much easier to learn if you have student divers practice them in a confined water session or on the surface first. You may add confined water and/or surface practice sessions at your discretion. The confined water session may also include a scuba skills review.
So, assuming the students have some experience with DSMBs from a safety stop depth -- and they should! -- no additional practice is needed and using the DSMB on dives 1-2-3 is certainly permissable....it is not a new skill. If the student has never shot a DSMB from depth, then that IS a new skill and would need to be taught and practices in a practical session beforehand. If the students wish to deploy a DSMB from depth on dive 4, it is their dive they are planning, so long as it is not the first time they've done it. None of the DSMB skills are in the performance standards, so no penalties if it goes awry.
 
My old 2007 Deep Manual says for on Dive 2-- Ascent with Visual Reference--safety stop. I suppose that could mean DSMB, but also could mean anchor line? At any rate, I had no previous experience doing this, as back then it wasn't part of OW and I didn't do it in AOW.
 
My old 2007 Deep Manual says for on Dive 2-- Ascent with Visual Reference--safety stop. I suppose that could mean DSMB, but also could mean anchor line? At any rate, I had no previous experience doing this, as back then it wasn't part of OW and I didn't do it in AOW.

Interesting interpretation. I can only speak to the conversations I had with two training consultants. Again, I honestly wish that DSMB deployment would only be done in OW, and DSMB deployment be repeated in con ed. The only real test I guess would be a court of law, and I hope that we never know.
 


A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

There's too much thread drift. Please return to the subject matter, which is "Beyond PADI Master Diver" and not which skills PADI allows in Deep
 
And even though my highest cert is issued by CMAS, I'll readily admit that PADI's teaching material is quite superior, at least for the majority of students who aren't in the top tier WRT dedication and talent. I know a highly ranked CMAS instructor, and he admits all the time that PADI has some excellent training material, a lot of it much better than what he has access to through his current agency.

I agree; the PADI materials are better than some of the other agencies. I thought there were lots of areas for improvement for my BSAC Dive Leader training materials compared to my PADI Divemaster materials (including the Encyclopedia). While BSAC's training materials might be a bit thin, my Abu Dhabi Sub Aqua Club instructors were top quality divers and trainers. While PADI trained, my diving improved in a club environment following BSAC diving frameworks.

Train as much as you can afford, train regularly throughout your diving career, and put into practice what you learn through regular diving.

For some, a comprehensive and progressive MSD program is one way to life-long learning in scuba diving; PADI will support you with high quality training materials.
 
Once a student leaves a course they are free to totally forget anything be it skills or knowledge. As some one who frequently instabuddies on ocean dives I have seen many examples including forgetting to not hold breath, rushing to surface, not remembering what NDL is etc. A student finishes course A. Then a few years later we see them diving. There is no reason to assume the student remembers facts or skills at that point unless the student wants to remember and values that remembering. An instructor, good as they are, only can produce the student at the moment of graduation, After that it is completely on the student, many of whom just want to get wet and do not retain some of the knowledge and some of the skills.

Some of what we see endlessly complained about on SB is not poor teaching but is the student not caring afterwards.

One advantage of a stretched out series of classes/certs/etc is that it helps in retraining and retaining.
 
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