PADI certification question

[boulderjohn]

That's what I thought, too. And I still believe you are correct. But, I was doing classroom training for my Divemaster cert a little over a month ago. I asked this question in the class and the shop owner (who is an instructor for PADI, SDI, and SSI, at least) said that as a DM I should treat OW as a certified limit of 60', and AOW as 100'. In other words, if I am working as a DM on a dive excursion, I should not allow anyone to go on a dive that is beyond their certified limits, where I take those numbers as the certification limits.

So, in theory, I am not supposed to let anyone come on a dive that is planned for deeper than 100' unless they have at least the full Deep Specialty. I asked "what about the crusty old diver who's been way past 100' a thousand times, but they only have an OW card?" I was told that it does not matter - i.e. it doesn't matter to the insurance company or the court. Pointing to experience is no protection against a claim that I let someone dive beyond their certified limits.

So, for the OP, the point is that an OW card may certify you to do any recreational sport diving (i.e. to 130') you wish, but if you're diving with a guide or charter operation, they may not see it the same way.

That's the shop owner's opinion, and it might be exactly what he would expect of his DMs.

If you are a DM working for a dive operation, your employer is going to make the rules. If you got a job as a DM in Cozumel and insisted on following those rules, your employment status would not last very long.

Furthermore....

I just had a long discussion with PADI headquarters that began with the wording of the rules for wreck penetration and then went to other areas as well. PADI training says that you should dive within the limits of your experience and training. I was quite explicitly told that a diver's experience can allow them to go beyond the specified limits of their certification level--they just have to use good judgment about it.

I said the wording of that was not clear, and I proposed more specific wording for the wreck diving course. I was told that my new wording would be included in the course in the future, and it would be described for diving in general in a future edition of their professional journal.

 

[stuartv]

That's the shop owner's opinion, and it might be exactly what he would expect of his DMs.

If you are a DM working for a dive operation, your employer is going to make the rules. If you got a job as a DM in Cozumel and insisted on following those rules, your employment status would not last very long.

Right. I don't really expect that rule to get much play time. Around here, a normal trip would be to go to NC. Many of those dives are to wrecks deeper than 100'. Somehow, I don't see my shop turning away paying customers because they have AOW but not Deep. I have a feeling that, for cases like that, the shop will say "you're going out with a dive charter operation. They only require AOW. Any liability is on them." So, it will be fine for me to go on a shop trip, work as a DM for my shop's customers, and have people with AOW diving deeper than 100'... because the shop figures the liability is on the boat charter operator.

 

[Bob DBF]

In other words, if I am working as a DM on a dive excursion, I should not allow anyone to go on a dive that is beyond their certified limits, where I take those numbers as the certification limits.

As I said, the enforcement of those rules are dependant on the dive operator. Although I finally got my AOW and Deep to avoid those situations, I still dive with operators that only need a c-card. Granted it might be different if they put DM's in the water in other than emergency situations.


Bob

 

[boulderjohn]

Right. I don't really expect that rule to get much play time. Around here, a normal trip would be to go to NC. Many of those dives are to wrecks deeper than 100'. Somehow, I don't see my shop turning away paying customers because they have AOW but not Deep. I have a feeling that, for cases like that, the shop will say "you're going out with a dive charter operation. They only require AOW. Any liability is on them." So, it will be fine for me to go on a shop trip, work as a DM for my shop's customers, and have people with AOW diving deeper than 100'... because the shop figures the liability is on the boat charter operator.

When I was arguing with PADI about the need for clarifying language, they said it was obviously not a problem because dive operators all over the world were taking people deeper than their certification level and into swim-throughs (which was the starting point of our discussion). They said that proved that these operators all over the world understood that it was OK to do so. I still disagree. I talked with the dive operation I use the most in Florida about it, and the manager said they believe they are indeed violating norms when divers go deeper than their certifications and when they go through simple wrecks, but they have to do it to stay in business. They would have no customers if they enforced those supposed rules.

 

[KeithG]

When I was arguing with PADI about the need for clarifying language, they said it was obviously not a problem because dive operators all over the world were taking people deeper than their certification level and into swim-throughs (which was the starting point of our discussion). They said that proved that these operators all over the world understood that it was OK to do so. I still disagree. I talked with the dive operation I use the most in Florida about it, and the manager said they believe they are indeed violating norms when divers go deeper than their certifications and when they go through simple wrecks, but they have to do it to stay in business. They would have no customers if they enforced those supposed rules.

I am with boulderjohn on this one. The agencies need to provide clearer explanation.

There are lots of dive ops that truely believe these depth limit myths
AND
the discussion of the depth limit myth is a regular topic here on SB. So even the experts are confused!

There ARE some agencies that do print shallower depth limit on their cards (RAID?) as there was a thread a while ago about the topic and someone posted images of their graduated c cards showing progressively deeper depths.

 

[boulderjohn]

There are lots of dive ops that truely believe these depth limit myths
AND
the discussion of the depth limit myth is a regular topic here on SB. So even the experts are confused!

I posted the results of my conversation with PADI in the forum on SB that is exclusively for PADI pros, and those who responded were thoroughly surprised.

 

[Jidherrer]

It sounds like the scuba diver certification, except for the statement about the first three chapters of the advanced open water manual. That would have to have been the regular open water manual, not the advanced. (I am not trying to pick on your wording--just trying to make sure we understand what you did.)

The real difference between the scuba diving certification and the OW certification is not the depth--it is the fact that you cannot dive without supervision with the scuba diving certificate.

Here are the instructions PADI instructors are given for upgrading a scuba diver to the ow certification:

Upgrade to Open Water Diver
Use the following procedures to upgrade PADI Scuba
Divers at any time to Open Water Divers:
1. Retain a photocopy of the diver’s certification card.
2. Have the diver complete a Liability Release and
Assumption of Risk Agreement, Standard Safe Diving
Practices Statement of Understanding and PADI
Medical Statement.
3. Preassess the diver’s knowledge and skills, and
remediate as necessary.
4. Have the diver complete either a 200 metre/yard
continuous surface swim or 300 metre/yard swim with
mask, snorkel and fi ns.
5. Have the diver complete the balance of the Open Water
Diver course:
a. Knowledge Development 4-5 including Quiz 4 and
the Final Exam.
b. Confined Water Dives 4-5, and all remaining Dive
Flexible Skills.
c. Open Water Dives 3-4, and all remaining Dive
Flexible Skills.​

Thanks. Just checked and it is the open water diver manual. My bad. Thanks for all the advice. Really appreciate it.

 

[tdallen]

I asked this question in the class and the shop owner (who is an instructor for PADI, SDI, and SSI, at least) said that as a DM I should treat OW as a certified limit of 60', and AOW as 100'. In other words, if I am working as a DM on a dive excursion, I should not allow anyone to go on a dive that is beyond their certified limits, where I take those numbers as the certification limits.

My experience is limited, but I'll contribute what I've seen. Dive Ops tend to classify certain dives as "advanced dives". They then establish qualifications to go on the advanced dive, typically OW with 25 dives, OW with 50 dives, AOW, etc. If the only thing distinguishing a dive is that it may go to 70 or 80fsw, I have not seen Dive Ops considering that an "advanced dive" and I've been able to go on them with my OW cert. It's then up to me to dive within the limits I feel safe with. FWIW.

 

[AdivingBel]

If the only thing distinguishing a dive is that it may go to 70 or 80fsw, I have not seen Dive Ops considering that an "advanced dive" and I've been able to go on them with my OW cert.

That's what I've seen from dive ops as well (in the US & Caribbean), more often than not. "Advanced dives" aren't just about depth. They are also about current, distance from assistance, trust concerning wreck penetrations/swim throughs, experience handling yourself if things become sporty, etc. etc.. What they want, IMHO, is no drama at the dive site, everybody to come home safely, and to run their business. Requirement of an advanced cert (beyond OW) is just another tool in their tool chest along with checkout dives, viewing log books, requiring dive guides, and just saying no (or yes). All IMHO, YMMV.

 

[JamesBon92007]

That's what I thought, too. And I still believe you are correct. But, I was doing classroom training for my Divemaster cert a little over a month ago. I asked this question in the class and the shop owner (who is an instructor for PADI, SDI, and SSI, at least) said that as a DM I should treat OW as a certified limit of 60', and AOW as 100'. In other words, if I am working as a DM on a dive excursion, I should not allow anyone to go on a dive that is beyond their certified limits, where I take those numbers as the certification limits.

So, in theory, I am not supposed to let anyone come on a dive that is planned for deeper than 100' unless they have at least the full Deep Specialty. I asked "what about the crusty old diver who's been way past 100' a thousand times, but they only have an OW card?" I was told that it does not matter - i.e. it doesn't matter to the insurance company or the court. Pointing to experience is no protection against a claim that I let someone dive beyond their certified limits.

So, for the OP, the point is that an OW card may certify you to do any recreational sport diving (i.e. to 130') you wish, but if you're diving with a guide or charter operation, they may not see it the same way.

My girlfriend's newly minted PADI OW card says "This qualification meets ISO 24801-2: Diver Level 2 -- Autonomous Diver Standard." I had to look it up. Basically it "recommends" that she dive to "20 m" along with other divers of the same certification level. Diver Level 1 recommends that the diver "dive to a recommended maximum depth of 12 m under the direct supervision of a dive leader." I interpret that as probably meaning that, according to PADI, she (Level 2) is qualified to dive deeper than 60 feet or under conditions beyond her training if accompanied by a "dive leader." I have not yet found the definition of "dive leader" however I would guess that "Dive Master" probably fits the definition. Since most dive ops provide a DM on boat dives and the divers are more or less supervised during the dives my interpretation is that her OW card qualifies her to do whatever she wants as long as she is accompanied by a "dive leader." That seems to agree with your statement but only with a dive leader and not under other circumstances.

Competencies and qualifications - EUF Certification

From what I just read it sounds like OP was certified to Level 1 and now wishes to continue to Level 2 Autonomous. I've never even heard any references to Level 1 and Level 2 etc before, it was always OW, AOW, etc.