PADI Divemaster insurance costs?

[Ber Rabbit]

FWIW NAUI has something called a "Training Assistant" that you don't hear a whole lot about. What you are allowed to do is very similar to a Dive Master but without the insurance requirement. I've never seen one but when I read about them in the "Standards and Policies Manual" the way a Training Assistant is described made me think "that's a dive master with no professional liability." Might be worth researching.
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[SDAnderson]

As a former flight instructor I understand what working with students involves, and I am also aware of the liability exposure if something goes wrong. I don't know if I would feel comfortable diving "unisured" once I earned the DM/DiveCon rating. My fear is that if I were a "Dive Professional" on a recreational dive (as just a diver) and something went wrong on that dive, that I might be drawn into a lawsuit based on any assistance that I might provide (or fail to provide).

I am not sure if non-working "dive professionals" have a duty to provide care and assistance in an emergency, and what tort exposure it may present. I will admit that as a law enforcement officer in our lawsuit crazy society I am a little paranoid about this. Persoanl Injury Lawyers tend to name everyone they can in a lawsuit, if only to make sure they get into the deepest pockets within reach. BTW- It is said that sharks don't attack personal injury lawyers out of professional courtesy!

Ask yourself this: as a flight instructor, did you have a duty of care to your fellow passengers when you were sitting in seat 34C on an American Airlines flight? Who knows in this modern world - certainly you can be sued for anything. Before deciding on a course of action, find out if there really is a problem with liability or if you're just afraid of the dark. Fear is the mind-killer.​

I may still take the DM/DiveCon course, but with such a huge commitment of time and training money I want to be sure I tie in with a training organization I can afford to stay with (insurance and recurent training).

I started to became disenchanted with PADI last year when I was trying to schedule some specialty courses. I was told by more than one PADI instructor that, with the exception of NITROX, the "specialty courses" were superficial at best. They were designed to be a money maker for the dive shops (training) and PADI (course materials and C-cards). Those instructors said my money would be better spent just diving (and gaining experience) rather than taking specialties that didn't mean much.

Since PADI has already gotten my money for the course materials I will complete those specialties. After that I think I want to "jump ship" to another agency to continue my training. Maybe I will go to SSI, NAUI or even go the TEC route.

Were the flight lessons you taught designed to be a money maker for the flight school? I don't understand why so many folks consider it a bad thing that their instructor and the dive shop he works for make money.

The essence of PADI is that they have broken the educational process down into small, bite-sized pieces so that their classes can be quick, fun and painless. Thus, it seems silly to complain that the classes are watered down, if you'll forgive the pun. Some of the classes have limited appeal but I think everyone should take Peak Performance Buoyancy and for the hundreds of divers on this board that have never been in the water outside of the quarry, the Boat Diver course might just be the way for them to get over their fears and get in the real water. Different people have different needs (and abilities) and PADI tries hard to be a resource for everyone - that's not a bad thing, either. I don't have anything against SSI or NAUI but their recreational courses aren't enough different from the PADI offerings to make a difference.​

Sorry to all the working PADI Pros... I didn't mean to start bashing PADI, but the insurance costs seemed to be the final straw. As for the "lawyer" joke above, I would like to appologize to the sharks (it wasn't fair to lump you in with the tort lawyers).

Rescue is a threshold class that marks the transition from guppy to diver. Though nominally about the rescue skills being taught, the real benefit of the class is that it teaches divers to be self-sufficient and marks the point at which they can pretty much be counted on to dive without supervision.

Dive Master is the next threshold class, this time from diver to supervisor. It solidifies competency in core skills and provides divers with an introduction to the fundamental knowledge and skills to become a reliable resource to other divers. If you don't want to lead, don't become a DM - though nothing says leading means you have to get paid.

Going Pro is a fairly serious step. The professional classes require the student commit more time, energy and money than the recreational classes and the courses cover more, and more difficult, material. Unlike many of PADI's recreational classes, their pro curriculum will challenge you.

As to going the technical route, look very closely before you leap. The essence of technical diving is that you're intentionally putting yourself in a place from which there is no escape and where a small mistake can mean serious injury or death. If you're hesitating to become a DM because of the cost, technical diving is definitely not for you. It will cost you about $1000 to become a PADI DM (all in) and another $3000 to become an Instructor. Becoming a technical diver will cost many times that much money. Technical dive classes will be seriously challenging - I've taken tech classes where half of the students were unable to successfully complete the class.

Don't adapt your goals to meet the available classes. Figure out what your goals are and first, then find a class (or classes) that will meet them.​

 

[tridacna]

With that said, the SSI DiveCon book says the same thing. "Support the LDS".

That's what made me leave the LDS with whom I did my DiveCon certification with. Not only did I have to work for free, (heck, I knew about that when I signed up), and had to support the store, (I did...to the tune of megadollars), but the final straw was that the owner got real pissed off when he saw that I was wearing a bottom-timer that I had bought on eBay. He went ape****. "You will support the LDS or leave" was the message. So I let the insurance lapse, changed my DiveCon status to inactive and just continued diving elsewhere. His loss - not mine.

 

[oly5050user]

FWIW NAUI has something called a "Training Assistant" that you don't hear a whole lot about. What you are allowed to do is very similar to a Dive Master but without the insurance requirement. I've never seen one but when I read about them in the "Standards and Policies Manual" the way a Training Assistant is described made me think "that's a dive master with no professional liability." Might be worth researching.
Ber :lilbunny:

still can be sued if an incident happens..
with no insurance-goodbye house,car, dog....

 

[Ber Rabbit]

still can be sued if an incident happens..
with no insurance-goodbye house,car, dog....

I really don't know the details so anything you can fill in would be appreciated. The descriptions of a Training Assistant are pretty vague and NAUI doesn't seem to promote that route. I was really surprised to see that it looked like they were doing the job of a DM as far as helping with a class but they had no insurance protection. Anyone can be sued if something happens and I definitely agree, no insurance=bad thing (I have a total of 3 policies just in case).
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[Sideband]

I am a NAUI Training Assistant. I am covered by the instructors insurance since I can not do anything without an instructor present. We can do pretty much anything an Assistant Instructor can do except we do not count towards instructor/student ratios.

Joe

 

[boulderjohn]

The idea of supporting the store is a strong suggestion by PADI, not a standard, and any enforcement is up to the LDS. Frankly, I am not all that worked up about it. To me, it makes sense. The LDS has to stay in business, and they need to sell equipment and teach courses to survive. If they are successful and thrive, they will have more classes, and that means more employment for me. If they go under, then it doesn't do me a lot of good, does it?

So I do indeed support the shop that employs me. But that shop makes it easy for me. When I do confined water classes, I use shop equipment; the only personal equipment I use is my mask. (Why submit my own equipment to regular bromine baths when I can use their gear instead?) In OW sessions, I sometimes use some of the shop equipment, often my own. Using my own is no problem because the shop gives me such a nice discount on equipment that I would be foolish to buy it anywhere else.

That is something I have not seen brought up here--does your dive shop give you an equipment discount of you are on the staff?

 

[DiveBandit]

I'm thinking of doing Dive Master. Is the rating like all other cards, that is they don't expire. Or do I need to keep current and insured to keep the rating. What are the fee's and dues I see mentioned here?

Also, can a DM free lance, by that I mean put together a dive trip on his own without LDS backing

Thanks all

 

[SDAnderson]

I'm thinking of doing Dive Master. Is the rating like all other cards, that is they don't expire. Or do I need to keep current and insured to keep the rating. What are the fee's and dues I see mentioned here?

Also, can a DM free lance, by that I mean put together a dive trip on his own without LDS backing

Thanks all

All PADI pro ratings expire every calendar year - you have to apply for renewal and pay the annual fee. PADI won't come to your house and take your card away from you if you don't but those that renew get a little sticker that goes on their card. Check with PADI to find out how much the DM renewal fee is - it won't break the bank.

Divemasters are not required to maintain insurance, though you probably should. Above DM and you must have proof of insurance in the States to renew.

You don't need to be a DM to put together a dive trip. Charter the space, sell the seats and away you go.

These are great questions to be asking anyone you're considering taking the class from.

 

[boulderjohn]

I'm thinking of doing Dive Master. Is the rating like all other cards, that is they don't expire. Or do I need to keep current and insured to keep the rating. What are the fee's and dues I see mentioned here?

Also, can a DM free lance, by that I mean put together a dive trip on his own without LDS backing

Your rating does not expire, but you must maintain current status each year and remain insured to be certified to work in that capacity. The fees for renewal are not much; the insurance is the biggest cost. I believe the figures you have seen floating around this thread are for the U.S. only; I am told DM insurance is much, much less in countries with fewer lawyers. (I don't know for sure.)

Unless, I am unaware of some kind of restriction, you can lead a dive trip under any circumstances. If you can get people to pay you and go with you as their leader, you can do that now. You just won't be insured in case there is a problem, and you won't have any agency backing you up in case of a lawsuit.