PADI Master Diver Rating

[Slonda828]

These conversations always boil down to the same half-dozen or so old-timers dropping trou' and grabbing a ruler.

Guys ... you made your point about six or seven years ago. The rest of us ain't worthy ... never will be. We get it. Declare yourselves the winner and pull your pants back up ... old butts just ain't that much fun to look at ... :shocked2:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I really feel like you are missing the main point of what most of the people opposed to the MSD card are saying. I could sum it up like this:

"Why pay money for just a card when there is a legitimate course out there that may expand your knowledge and skills beyond that which you have now?"

If people ask me if they should get their tires changed at a crappy garage, I tell them no. If people ask me if the PADI MSD card has value (other than the processing fee), I tell them no. I have to wonder why you wouldn't do the same. The OP asked, we did not present unsolicited advice. It has nothing to do with measuring one's member, it has to do with getting those things for which you pay. If you pay for a rating, you should get the knowledge and skills commensurate with that rating. If you were a doctor, yet could not evaluate a patient, then you are a doctor in name only. If you are a "master" scuba diver, and you did nothing at all more than a rescue diver course with some specialties, how "mastered" are you really? Do you disagree with getting the most for your money?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I really feel like you are missing the main point of what most of the people opposed to the MSD card are saying. I could sum it up like this:

"Why pay money for just a card when there is a legitimate course out there that may expand your knowledge and skills beyond that which you have now?"

Oh, I got the point. In fact, I agree with what you just said. On the other hand, it's not a course ... it's a recognition program. That's really all the point that needs to be made. And in fact, that was established in the reply 2 ... and after about reply 8 there wasn't really anything of value added in this thread.

If people ask me if they should get their tires changed at a crappy garage, I tell them no. If people ask me if the PADI MSD card has value (other than the processing fee), I tell them no. I have to wonder why you wouldn't do the same. The OP asked, we did not present unsolicited advice. It has nothing to do with measuring one's member, it has to do with getting those things for which you pay. If you pay for a rating, you should get the knowledge and skills commensurate with that rating. If you were a doctor, yet could not evaluate a patient, then you are a doctor in name only. If you are a "master" scuba diver, and you did nothing at all more than a rescue diver course with some specialties, how "mastered" are you really? Do you disagree with getting the most for your money?

But blanket statements about what people have and haven't "mastered" are pretty worthless. Some people collect cards ... some collect skills. Without seeing them dive, you really don't know which is which.

Everyone's different, and everyone takes classes for their own reasons, and progresses at their own pace. Without knowing what quality of instruction they received, and how much effort they put into the class, and how much they got out of it ... you really have no way of knowing what they've achieved. I've known divers with 25 dives who look better in the water than other divers with hundreds of dives. I know some PADI instructors who turn out fantastic divers ... even straight out of OW class.

Recognition programs are designed to keep people diving, and to keep coming back for another class. In and of itself, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Not everyone lives in a part of the world where they can dive on a whim (I'm lucky that I do) ... and so if such a program keeps them interested, keeps them diving, and keeps them improving their skills, I really don't have a problem with it.

Are there better values out there? Sure ... but not everyone has easy access to those either.

As I said in an earlier thread ... "whatever floats your boat". If getting a PADI MSD card makes somebody feel good about improving their diving skills, and getting a bit more experience, I say go for it. All it's gonna cost them in the long run is the price of a C-card.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Slonda828]

Oh, I got the point. In fact, I agree with what you just said. On the other hand, it's not a course ... it's a recognition program.

I agree with your sentiment that it is not a course. However, is it marketed as such? It is a rating, correct? Let's grab our friend Merriam-Webster:

Rating, noun
"ranking; designation; evaluation; appraisal; mark; score."

Does that effectively convey what the recognition card is? In my opinion, no. Is a PADI master diver evaluated, appraised, marked, or scored in order to get that card? No. They are scored in other classes, but they are not scored with respect to their MSD "rating". That is why many consider it worthless. "Whatever floats your boat" is fine, but the OP asked us if we thought it was worth it. The resounding answer was no, except for two or three people (all of them happen to have PADI MSD cards.) I took the NAUI MSD course, so I have some experience in this particular realm. I offered my opinion. Sometimes I think you play devil's advocate for no reason on than to disagree. Why do you disagree with me? Why is the NAUI course NOT a better choice Bob? Convince me with facts or evidence, not rhetoric.

But blanket statements about what people have and haven't "mastered" are pretty worthless. Some people collect cards ... some collect skills. Without seeing them dive, you really don't know which is which.

Statements about what people have mastered in the NAUI course aren't pretty worthless, because you can look them up and actually achieve them. Then again, since the PADI card does not require any standards to be demonstrated at all, you are right. Again, I understand that some people collect cards. Again I say, is that how it is marketed? Is it sold as a collectible? No, it is marketed as evidence of outstanding achievement in recreational diving. Does it meet that intention? In my opinion, no.

As I said in an earlier thread ... "whatever floats your boat". If getting a PADI MSD card makes somebody feel good about improving their diving skills, and getting a bit more experience, I say go for it. All it's gonna cost them in the long run is the price of a C-card.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Right, here's an example for you. I am currently at EASE taking my divemaster course. There is a guy here from Colombia who is getting his PADI MSD because he wants some dives with supervision in America. I totally respect what he is doing, and I am not going to degrade him by running my mouth, I think he's a great guy. However, if he walked up to me and asked me about the NAUI MSD course, I would tell him that it is leaps and bounds above the PADI MSD card. That is the difference. We are providing advice based upon our personal experiences to an individual who requested our opinions. Furthermore, a diver is not getting more experience by sending in for a card. The rescue class and specialties (ostensibly) got him or her more experience. I just have to be honest and say that I think you are defending a failing point.

 

[scubadada]

All, particularly Slonda828,

This has not been a particularly useful thread. All words, no performance. As previously posted, after intial training, I have progressed through PADI training and am currrently a MSD. It might be in our best interests to break down the barriers and get some experiernce with one another. As an older guy, this should not be very threatening to you young virile guys. I will be travelling as a single diver to Florida twice in the next month and would love the oppoturtunity to dive with any of you to expand our relationship. At the end of that period, you have the right to say anything about me and my training background you think is indicated. I will be diving with Ocean Divers in Key Largo on May 30-June 1 and would enjoy the opportunity to lead dives on the Spiegel Grove or the Duane, both dives I'm quite familiar with. I'll be diving with Underwater Explorers out of Boynton June 6-9. I've never dived out of Boynton but would be glad to match my drift or wreck diving skill against yours. In fact, I would be quite grateful to pick up pointers from more experienced and skillful divers.

There you go, put your money where your mouth is. I would love the opportunity to dive with any of you. Let's reserve judgement until after the fact.

Sincerely yours, good diving, Craig

 

[Slonda828]

All, particularly Slonda828,

This has not been a particularly useful thread. All words, no performance. As previously posted, after intial training, I have progressed through PADI training and am currrently a MSD. It might be in our best interests to break down the barriers and get some experiernce with one another. As an older guy, this should not be very threatening to you young virile guys. I will be travelling as a single diver to Florida twice in the next month and would love the oppoturtunity to dive with any of you to expand our relationship. At the end of that period, you have the right to say anything about me and my training background you think is indicated. I will be diving with Ocean Divers in Key Largo on May 30-June 1 and would enjoy the opportunity to lead dives on the Spiegel Grove or the Duane, both dives I'm quite familiar with. I'll be diving with Underwater Explorers out of Boynton June 6-9. I've never dived out of Boynton but would be glad to match my drift or wreck diving skill against yours. In fact, I would be quite grateful to pick up pointers from more experienced and skillful divers.

There you go, put your money where your mouth is. I would love the opportunity to dive with any of you. Let's reserve judgement until after the fact.

Sincerely yours, good diving, Craig

Craig,

I'd love to go diving with you. I think an important distinction that I am trying to make is that I do not believe you are deficient because you are a MSD via PADI. I take issue with the program (or lack thereof) and not your ability as a diver. If you reference one of my above posts, you will see that I do not decry people who have taken the course (card?). Still, regardless of the way you took my comments, I'll dive with you. I'm not out to judge you though, so there is no need for me to "put my money where my mouth is" because we are not involved in any wager. You could be the next JYC standing on the fly bridge with a CG45 in one hand and the fin of a great white in the other and you aren't going to prove anything to me, because there is no need for you to do so. I live in Savannah, so coordinate with me and we'll link up in Florida. I have a mandatory dinner and beers policy post dive, so I hope the physician in you does not explode when I begin to accelerate my offgassing via light beer. I may bring my girlfriend and two of my close friends if that is alright.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sometimes I think you play devil's advocate for no reason on than to disagree. Why do you disagree with me?

Please don't take it personal ... it's not.

It's not so much devil's advocate as just a difference in point of view. Not everyone takes diving as seriously as you and I do. And as long as they dive responsibly and within the limits of their training, experience and comfort zone, those folks are entitled to feel good about ... and talk about ... their experiences without being belittled.

Why is the NAUI course NOT a better choice Bob? Convince me with facts or evidence, not rhetoric.

Why would I want to do that? I TEACH the NAUI Master Diver course. I happen to think it's the best course NAUI offers. But that wasn't what the OP was asking about. If he wanted to ask me about the NAUI Master Diver course, I'd be happy to answer his questions.

I just have to be honest and say that I think you are defending a failing point.

All I'm defending is people's right to talk about their diving experiences without getting hammered because somebody else thinks it's worthless. Sounds too much like George Irvine to suit my taste.

The dude asked two simple questions. The answers are "No" and "No" ... all else is just unnecessary.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Indian Valley Scuba]

Geez Louise! Any diver that wishes to further their personal education and experience, undert the auspices of any organization, is a diver that I would prefer to dive with any day, versus a a diver who believes they have learned it all.

 

[Thalassamania]

Geez Louise! Any diver that wishes to further their personal education and experience, undert the auspices of any organization, is a diver that I would prefer to dive with any day, versus a a diver who believes they have learned it all.

I'd rather dive with someone who actually has mastered almost all of it. On occasion I have had that chance.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Geez Louise! Any diver that wishes to further their personal education and experience, undert the auspices of any organization, is a diver that I would prefer to dive with any day, versus a a diver who believes they have learned it all.

I'd rather dive with someone who actually has mastered almost all of it. On occasion I have had that chance.

I'd rather dive with someone who's having fun ... I want a dive buddy with some enthusiasm. If they're a master, I'll watch and learn. If their skills are a little weak, we can have a great time together working on 'em. Skills aren't the reason I got into diving ... they're simply a means to an end.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Slonda828]

Why would I want to do that? I TEACH the NAUI Master Diver course. I happen to think it's the best course NAUI offers. But that wasn't what the OP was asking about. If he wanted to ask me about the NAUI Master Diver course, I'd be happy to answer his questions.

The dude asked two simple questions. The answers are "No" and "No" ... all else is just unnecessary.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Look, I was taught to never tell someone that there is a problem without providing a tenable solution. The OP asked if the PADI MSD course/card/recognition system was worthwhile. Several people said no. I concurred, but I offered a solution instead of saying simply "no". You can defend "diver's rights" or whatever you think you are defending, but I'm not attacking anyone. I am simply stating that the PADI MSD course is not worth the money (unless you have need of a bag). I am for people continuing their education but telling someone to complete open water, AOW, rescue, and 5 specialties should put them around 30 or so dives....all under instruction and conveniently providing that LDS with much needed income and gear sales. I was simply stating that I feel the PADI MSD thing is inadequate, and that the NAUI MSD is a far superior substitute. Telling someone "no", and leaving it at that, does not give them a solution, it gives them another problem.

I'd rather dive with someone who's having fun ... I want a dive buddy with some enthusiasm. If they're a master, I'll watch and learn. If their skills are a little weak, we can have a great time together working on 'em. Skills aren't the reason I got into diving ... they're simply a means to an end.

I could not agree more. Why would I pay to fill my tanks if diving sucked? It's not like I dive for any other reason than because it is a great time. This has nothing to do with "diving with someone who's having fun". It has everything to do with advocating that people take quality courses so that they get the most for their money. I personally believe that one of the functions of this board is to prevent agencies, shops and instructors from preying on divers who do not know any better. If a diver wants to take the PADI MSD card after they know that there are other options, then more power to them. They can frame their certificate, and go to the gym with their handy logo bag.