"Piece of Paper Syndrome"

[scubagoldmc]

We all put trust in our buddys --especially in the technical diving community. And our buddys put trust in us; this is different because one of the buddies was completely unqualified. Period.

I have to say, in my opinion, your analogies are mistaken --if anything they disprove your point. What Gambitt is suggesting is that a fighter pilot says to a sport pilot, "hey, I'm a fighter pilot, want to go flying with me, I'll let you take off, fly and land the jet." Most states require hunter safety courses. We don't allow unlicensed drivers to head out on the road without an instructor. As you say, the list goes on.

More importantly, Gambitt suggests this should be the norm in diving. If someone has a pal who is willing, you simply don't need an instructor. As you can tell by the concensus of the most experienced divers on this board, mentoring is desirable; crazy risks are not.

Jeff

Jeff,

I don't think you have it quite right. It's like he says there is your plane, I'll talk to through it on the radio. Let's go.

Mike

 

[Akimbo]

Two things. I don't need to look at the link you listed, I can look on my SL-27 sitting next to me. It was a test questions…

Did I pass? Seriously, lot of people read this forum and may not have a Bandmask in their stash. I had the most trouble clearing in the Savoie and Rat Hat.

…Also, I must be getting fat. I can't get my hands into my neck dam. It's a size medium and I'm a size 17.5"

It's all a question of motivation. I shoved my hand up my neck dam on a Miller to adjust or scratch something. I was in a hot water suit and the tip of a finger had torn off the glove. There must have been a tight fit because hot water started peeing all over the inside of the hat before I figured it out. It had to be a bronze hat, it sure got cold after that.

 

[Deep-6]

Gambitt, hey bro. I'm not a DM or an instructor. I am however the poor bloke that shows up when something goes horribly wrong. Do me a favor, Don't advocate diving without a certification and please don't advocate diving beyond your abilities. I get tired of putting people in bags.

 

[Mike Boswell]

I've recently been posting in the Diving without Certification thread...and it came to me, that a lot of the posters advocating not to do it, are those with a vested interest in having someone "take a course". DM's, Instructors etc.

I personally know lots of Divers who have Never taken any course beyond the Open Water, and only that just to have a "piece of paper" to get a tank filled. And some of these guys have 3-4000 dives.

I have a dive buddy (we've been friends for 40 yrs) , who's not "technically" an instructor, but he's a Sat-Rat on the Hibernia Oil rigs. He showed up at the house one day, with 2 Draeger Re-breathers, Kirby-Morgan dive hats (complete with voice-gear) , and said "Come on, we're gonna do some "Real" Wreck diving today. Off we went to Brockville to dive the wrecks.

So bottom line... This guy is not an "Instructor", he took an "unqualified diver" deeper than they had ever been before, using equipment that I had never seen; and yet I felt SAFER diving with him, than with many of the "Instructors" I have dove with at other destinations.

IMHO, You can have all the "pieces of paper" you want, but it don't mean crap, when it comes to real world experience.

Thoughts?

Hi Gambitt:

Did your friend try to teach you anything? Did you learn anything from your dive? If yes, then he was instructing you, and you were his student.

Did all this really happen? On this planet? If yes, then it was a "real world experience".

So your "instructor* taught you, his "student", some skills and some knowledge, and it was a "real world experience".

Now, most of us agree with you that "real world experience" is important, but we can't just take your word for it: We need you to PROVE you have it. So, how are you going to prove to everybody that you have it?

You guessed it: A "piece of paper".

 

[Divor]

I agree with the OP, and I honestly don't understand why people in the diving community take themselves so much more seriously when it comes to putting trust in their buddy's hands. You put your life in your buddy's hands any time you ride in their car, go hunting/shooting with them, fly as a passenger, obviously the list goes on.

Maybe because diving takes place in such a hostile environment that one breath of it will kill you, contrary to your car and hunting examples. And flying as a passenger is more like watching a scuba movie than actually diving.

But the real elephant in the room here is that all the examples you list require training and a license.

 

[Hoomi]

Comparing O/W Instructor training to that required for a Commercial Pilot ticket just really doesn't make any sense, there is no comparison.

I realize the comparison between scuba cert and a commercial pilot's license is tenuous at best, but the point I was making is in what we want from someone before we're willing to entrust our lives to that person. In both flying and scuba, we're putting ourselves into an environment that is contrary to our design. We're no more designed to fly than we are to spend an hour 60' underwater. We've developed technological systems that enable us to do that which is alien to our biology, but with the inherent risk that being in this environment can be extremely unforgiving of mistakes or mishaps.

Just because I can do something, doesn't mean it's a good idea for me to do so. I'm reasonably confident I could get into a Cessna 172, safely and successfully taxi to the end of the runway, take off, fly around, and land again, without having the FAA license to prove it. However, even if my confidence is accurate and I could do that, it would be foolish of me to do so, and even more foolish for someone else to trust their life to my skills. Even if I did so, and we returned safely, doesn't change the foolishness of it.

It may just be a piece of paper, but I want the guy flying the airplane I'm on to have it. I want the instructor who's training me to extend my limits in diving to have the appropriate piece of paper as well. Both people are asking me to trust them with my life, and I want to know that I can do so with some measure of confidence.

 

[bamamedic]

One thing that really struck me from reading the OP's initial post....dear god, this all happened on a rebreather. I've seen experienced and highly trained divers run into issues on a rebreather that might've seriously injured a lesser trained diver.

When mentoring a new diver, one thing I stress is, "Do you have the skills needed to complete this dive safely if something were to happen to me?" If the answer is no, then it becomes a "trust me" dive, and that becomes entirely too risky.

Even the best voice communication capabilities in the world won't do you a damn bit of good if your dive buddy got blown off the wreck or experienced an equipment problem/medical problem underwater and is unable to help you.

Mentoring absolutely has it's place in diving, but something huge like learning to dive a rebreather really needs the skill of an experienced instructor. There's a reason that rebreather training courses are generally divided into three different levels, with each level taking several days to complete.

An experienced diver taught me how to dive a drysuit, how to dive doubles, how to carry a deco bottle...but I took a course in how to plan and conduct decompression dives, and it was one of the wisest decisions I've made in my diving career.

In cave diving, we have a saying....any diver can enter a cave, but it takes training to make it back out alive. That goes for any advanced diving...be it rebreather, deco, or whatnot. The "down" part isn't hard...it's the "up" part that takes some training

 

[Dr Neil]

When one does a good ole boy "hey watch this!" act, the gob rarely if ever thinks about their survivors and next of kin picking up the pieces.

Perhaps it's my age talking, but insurance companies and lawyers tend to lick their chops when one dies while doing something they are not qualified to do. Before "hey watch this..." ask yourself who is going to pay for your burial and perhaps pay for the recovery services etc.

One can do nearly anything that requires some type of certification without the proper certification and adequate training. That piece of paper stating that the person is qualified to be doing whatever they were doing when they unexpectedly expired is often the difference between next of kin merely grieving or grieving plus tryng to figure out how they are going to have to pay for the mess.

 

[boulderjohn]

That piece of paper stating that the person is qualified to be doing whatever they were doing when they unexpectedly expired is often the difference between next of kin merely grieving or grieving plus tryng to figure out how they are going to have to pay for the mess.

And don't forget that if you are looking for the Mentor for help with the financial consequences, he or she will not be covered by the liability insurance that covers an instructor.

 

[Herk_Man]

So your point is you did an incredibly dangerous thing and you didn't die, so it's okay?

Is that you point?

Jeff. Stop and think about this for a second. It is very possible for someone that does not have "a piece of paper" to be more qualified and a better instructor than someone with "a piece of paper." That's his point.

What he did was not "incredibly dangerous" and it was his decision to make. And he made an observation while doing it that he felt safer on this complex dive than he felt with "professional" instructors.

I dove for YEARS without being certified, all over the world. When I finally decided to get my card, I got out of the pool from my first confined water session and an instructor that was doing lifeguard duties came over and said, "You've dove before and you've done it a lot. You are way too good at this to be a new student." I just smiled and shrugged. It made me really appreciate the instruction I got from the diver that taught me, who was not an instructor. Still the best instruction I've ever received.