Pony bottle vs. Spare Air?

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I wonder if those DIR guys get complacent and rely upon the false sense of security provided by a buddy who is supposed to always be by their side. It's all fine until the ONE time when the buddy drifted off.....:D

Can you complete this sentence? So two divers who learned buddy diving and believe in it (like they were taught in Open Water) get separated. Then what? What do you suppose will happen next?
 
I did not write the following, I found it searching for new cam strap buckles Thought it made some good points Why a Pony Bottle is your safest alternate air source.

There are two situations that would require the use of an alternate air source.

1. You run out of air.
2. Your dive buddy runs out of air.

Lets look at situation number one first.

If you run out of air, your problem is to quickly get enough air to allow you to reach the surface safely.

Your training class taught you to get the attention of your dive buddy and give him the hand signal that you need air. He will then allow you to take his second stage out of his own mouth (because that is the quickest source of air you can find) and he will take his own alternate air source to breathe from and the two of you will proceed safely to the surface. That is a very good system for a dive class.

But that is not what usually occurs. When you run out of air there is a good chance your dive buddy is not standing in front of you on the bottom of the training pool waiting for you to give him the “out of air” sign.

He might be swimming around the other side of the coral head looking for fish or he may be facing another way swimming in the other direction.

If you are out of air, are you going to attempt to find him or catch up to him or are you going to try to make an emergency ascent to the surface while you still can?

Even if he is close enough to get his attention, if you are out of air it is likely that he is low on air as well.

The two of you breathing on his tank will run him out of air very quickly.

If the person you are diving with is not someone you have really practiced out of air emergencies with, even when you give him the “out of air” sign he may not be willing to allow you to take his second stage and attach yourself to him. Diving accident statistics show that a large proportion of cases in which one diver seeks air from another diver results in two deaths rather than one.

If you happen to be in cold water, two divers breathing off of the same first stage will increase the flow of air through the first stage, lowering the temperature of the regulator and possibly causing the first stage to freeze.

Since a second stage regulator that is tuned properly has a great tendency to free flow, most octopus alternate air sources or BCD alternate air sources have been de-tuned to prevent free flow, making them difficult to breathe. Even if your dive buddy agrees to let you share his air, he might very well decide that he wants to keep his primary second stage and let you breathe from his alternate. That will cause some precious loss of time while you fumble for access of the air source and leave you with a source of air that is difficult to breathe from. Especially if you are deep, it may be critical that the primary second stage is a high performance model allowing easy breathing but the alternate air source is deliberately made to pass air reluctantly to avoid free flow.

However, if you run out of air and have a pony bottle, you do not need to worry about the condition of your primary regulator and air tank, you don’t have to worry about getting to your dive buddy and attaching yourself to his air supply, You simply switch to your pony bottle and you are completely self sufficient.

Let’s look at the second situation. Your dive buddy runs out of air. The situation is reversed and you have to decide if you want to let him attach himself to you. It is a shocking surprise to many divers when they find that the person they are diving with, someone they thought they could count on in an emergency, suddenly becomes a dangerous adversary when they run out of air.

If he has a pony bottle of his own, he will pose no threat to you. If he doesn’t and he comes to you for help, the chances are that he might be in a frame of mind that will be at least on the edge of panic. That’s not quite the same situation as when the two of you were practicing the moves on the bottom of the training tank. And even worse, if it is not someone you have trained with, you don’t know what he is likely to do in his fight to survive and how he might put you in danger. If he comes to you for air, you can hand him your pony bottle and the two of you can ascend safely with no physical connection tying you dangerously together.

Ladies, I have been using the word “he” to refer to the divers in this discussion only because it is easier to write “he” than “he or she” each time. I have not forgotten that a large proportion of divers are ladies. Women divers have an increased amount of danger when they are diving because statistically they are usually much smaller and have much less bodily strength than their diver partners. That makes them vulnerable to being injured or killed by a dive partner who is struggling to survive and is only thinking about getting air into himself.

Some quotes on the subject:

Air Sharing and Out-of-Air Emergencies by Lynn Laymon
"Sharing air is a safe and feasible alternative when both the donor and recipient are trained, proficient and practiced and the donor has plenty of air to share. However, this is seldom the case. Many experienced divers would rather risk their lives making a solo emergency ascent than share air with someone they don't know or have little confidence in. And don't expect to find every diver willing to share air with you, especially if he is not your buddy and doesn't know you. Diving accident statistics reveal a sobering fact about cases in which one diver runs out of air and seeks help from another diver. If one diver dies, both divers often die. Sharing air is serious business."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rodale's Scuba Diving, September 2000
Gearing Up for Going Down
"If you run out of air at depth you'll be glad your buddy's octopus is a high-performance regulator. It is, isn't it? In reality, your buddy is probably low on air too, and his octopus won't do you much good. That's why many deep divers use a completely redundant air source - a pony bottle and regulator or Spare Air."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rodale's Scuba Diving, November/December 1998
Solo Diving Facts and Fears by John Francis
"The buddy system can foster a false sense of security. Being a buddy does entail the responsibility to attempt rescue, perhaps at danger to yourself. The co-dependent diver syndrome is, in fact, one of the strongest objections to the buddy system. No one intends it, but the buddy system can foster the dangerous idea that somebody else knows better and will take care of you."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dive Training, October 2000
Waiting to Inhale by Robert Rossier
"Regardless of whom you're diving with, real friends may be hard to find when you're out of air at 100 feet."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scuba Times, May/June 1994
Running on Empty by Bret Gilliam
"Sadly the record of double fatalities for divers engaged in buddy breathing is disproportionately high."

Last but certainly not least: Over 90,000 pieces of life support equipment have been recalled in the last 25 years. Of those, 48,000 have been since 1995, and in the last 2 years alone, there have been 40,000 pieces of equipment recalled.
 
are two situations that would require the use of an alternate air source.

Diving accident statistics show that a large proportion of cases in which one diver seeks air from another diver results in two deaths rather than one.

If you happen to be in cold water, two divers breathing off of the same first stage will increase the flow of air through the first stage, lowering the temperature of the regulator and possibly causing the first stage to freeze.

Since a second stage regulator that is tuned properly has a great tendency to free flow, most octopus alternate air sources or BCD alternate air sources have been de-tuned to prevent free flow, making them difficult to breathe. Even if your dive buddy agrees to let you share his air, he might very well decide that he wants to keep his primary second stage and let you breathe from his alternate. That will cause some precious loss of time while you fumble for access of the air source and leave you with a source of air that is difficult to breathe from. Especially if you are deep, it may be critical that the primary second stage is a high performance model allowing easy breathing but the alternate air source is deliberately made to pass air reluctantly to avoid free flow.


Let’s look at the second situation. Your dive buddy runs out of air. The situation is reversed and you have to decide if you want to let him attach himself to you. It is a shocking surprise to many divers when they find that the person they are diving with, someone they thought they could count on in an emergency, suddenly becomes a dangerous adversary when they run out of air.

If he has a pony bottle of his own, he will pose no threat to you. If he doesn’t and he comes to you for help, the chances are that he might be in a frame of mind that will be at least on the edge of panic. That’s not quite the same situation as when the two of you were practicing the moves on the bottom of the training tank. And even worse, if it is not someone you have trained with, you don’t know what he is likely to do in his fight to survive and how he might put you in danger. If he comes to you for air, you can hand him your pony bottle and the two of you can ascend safely with no physical connection tying you dangerously together.

Ladies, I have been using the word “he” to refer to the divers in this discussion only because it is easier to write “he” than “he or she” each time. I have not forgotten that a large proportion of divers are ladies. Women divers have an increased amount of danger when they are diving because statistically they are usually much smaller and have much less bodily strength than their diver partners. That makes them vulnerable to being injured or killed by a dive partner who is struggling to survive and is only thinking about getting air into himself.

Some quotes on the subject:

Air Sharing and Out-of-Air Emergencies by Lynn Laymon
"Sharing air is a safe and feasible alternative when both the donor and recipient are trained, proficient and practiced and the donor has plenty of air to share. However, this is seldom the case. Many experienced divers would rather risk their lives making a solo emergency ascent than share air with someone they don't know or have little confidence in. And don't expect to find every diver willing to share air with you, especially if he is not your buddy and doesn't know you. Diving accident statistics reveal a sobering fact about cases in which one diver runs out of air and seeks help from another diver. If one diver dies, both divers often die. Sharing air is serious business."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rodale's Scuba Diving, September 2000
Gearing Up for Going Down
"If you run out of air at depth you'll be glad your buddy's octopus is a high-performance regulator. It is, isn't it? In reality, your buddy is probably low on air too, and his octopus won't do you much good. That's why many deep divers use a completely redundant air source - a pony bottle and regulator or Spare Air."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rodale's Scuba Diving, November/December 1998
Solo Diving Facts and Fears by John Francis
"The buddy system can foster a false sense of security. Being a buddy does entail the responsibility to attempt rescue, perhaps at danger to yourself. The co-dependent diver syndrome is, in fact, one of the strongest objections to the buddy system. No one intends it, but the buddy system can foster the dangerous idea that somebody else knows better and will take care of you."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dive Training, October 2000
Waiting to Inhale by Robert Rossier
"Regardless of whom you're diving with, real friends may be hard to find when you're out of air at 100 feet."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scuba Times, May/June 1994
Running on Empty by Bret Gilliam
"Sadly the record of double fatalities for divers engaged in buddy breathing is disproportionately high."

Last but certainly not least: Over 90,000 pieces of life support equipment have been recalled in the last 25 years. Of those, 48,000 have been since 1995, and in the last 2 years alone, there have been 40,000 pieces of equipment recalled.

Wow there a bunch of hooey!!! What stats show sharing air result in more deaths then saves- please show us source - I highly doubt you will find one anywhere. But it was printed in a magazine it must be fact.- Show me a source- the DAN statistics don't point this out and since there are no statistics on how many saves there have been made it can't be analyed- most people don't report when they do an uneventful shared air ascent. You can find quite a few successful saves on the accidents and incident forum not to many double drowning.

I don't know who you dive with but I know none of the people I dive with would hesitate to share air with me if I needed it. I have also shared air twice with unknown divers who came to me because I was the closest dive to them- again no problems. Many of your quotes come from people with some sort of agenda- promoting solo diving, selling gear etc... of course they will be bias.

I don't think there is one documented study that shows a pony bottle is safer than sharing air. Of course the safest is to monitor your air and not run out- its not hard to do. I know that in teaching divers both recreational and tech that adding extra gear isn't always the solution to problem. I have seen people with full pony bottles, stages etc not go to them when out of air due to panic- asked later why they didn't use there own back-up they say "I forgot it was there, I saw you breathing so I went to you"

The pony bottle is a tool when used properly can add a safety margin to a dive but is not necessarily the best solution.
 
But that is not what usually occurs. When you run out of air there is a good chance your dive buddy is not standing in front of you on the bottom of the training pool waiting for you to give him the “out of air” sign.

He might be swimming around the other side of the coral head looking for fish or he may be facing another way swimming in the other direction.

If your buddy isn't close enough to poke in the ribs, he's not your buddy, he's just some guy that got in the water with you.

Even if he is close enough to get his attention, if you are out of air it is likely that he is low on air as well.
Then he needs more training, as do you. Neither of you should be low on air, and certainly not both of you. My buddy always has enough air for me. I know this because we've planned the dive, the gas is part of the dive plan and we follow the plan. I do the same for him. I wouldn't use up the reserved gas in my tank any more than I'd steal the airbag from his car.

If the person you are diving with is not someone you have really practiced out of air emergencies with, even when you give him the “out of air” sign he may not be willing to allow you to take his second stage and attach yourself to him.
More planning.

Rule #1: Don't run out of air.

"Oops I ran out of air" is right up there with "I wonder how I got pregnant" in the history of dumb things.

Diving accident statistics show that a large proportion of cases in which one diver seeks air from another diver results in two deaths rather than one.
More training.

If you practice air sharing frequetly, it becomes a non-issue.

If you happen to be in cold water, two divers breathing off of the same first stage will increase the flow of air through the first stage, lowering the temperature of the regulator and possibly causing the first stage to freeze.
More planning and/or training and/or better equipment.

A freeflow doesn't cause instant death. If you're diving a single tank, you should have enough gas left in your tank to surface.

If your equipment can't handle the conditions, you need better equipment or better conditions. Also, since your buddy is counting on you for emergency air, having first stage that can't handle both of you is the equivalent to lying to your buddy.

Since a second stage regulator that is tuned properly has a great tendency to free flow, most octopus alternate air sources or BCD alternate air sources have been de-tuned to prevent free flow, making them difficult to breathe. Even if your dive buddy agrees to let you share his air, he might very well decide that he wants to keep his primary second stage and let you breathe from his alternate. That will cause some precious loss of time while you fumble for access of the air source and leave you with a source of air that is difficult to breathe from.
Don't buy a cheap alternate, and keep it serviced.

A pony won't fix this anyway. A reg that breathes like **** on your main tank would breathe the same way on your pony.

More training: If you can't find your alternate second stage when it's on your main tank, you can't find it when it's attached to your pony either. You need to know where all your stuff is, and be able to get to it quickly.

However, if you run out of air and have a pony bottle, you do not need to worry about the condition of your primary regulator and air tank, you don’t have to worry about getting to your dive buddy and attaching yourself to his air supply, You simply switch to your pony bottle and you are completely self sufficient.
See rule #1.

I have a couple of different scenarios:
  1. Somebody runs out of air, comes over and grabs the primary out of my mouth. I switch to my alternate, make sure he's OK, we end the dive and ascend.
  2. I run out of air. I reach over and take my buddy's primary, he switches to his alternate, makes sure I'm OK and we end the dive and ascend.
Terry
 
I personally think H2 Odysseys' units are superior to the spare air system. I have demo'd both at dive shops and sided on getting the H2 unit for solo diving especially. It's a bit larger then the spare air but cost about the same. It holds a bit more air and I feel is just an overall superior product.
 
Lots of opinions here - did anyone answer the OP's question?

A pony bottle is a modest sized redundant air supply that is properly sized should get you a NORMAL ascent (normal rate, normal safety stop, no rush). The actual sizes vary - I see 13-40 cu ft with 19 typical. It is not a replacement for gas planning, buddy, etc.. but rather a supplemental safety device.

A bailout bottle is an under-sized redundant air supply that will get you to the surface directly, it is not sized to allow safety stops or normal ascent rates. It does not provide all the safety of a pony, but is more compact (not really any cheaper). Typically 6 cu ft. May or may not have a hose.

Spare Air is a specific brand of a under sized (minature) bailout bottle (which is an undersized redundant air supply, which is no replacement for air planning or a good buddy).

Yes, you can have a 1 piece regaultor on a 6 cu ft bailout. The quality (and weigt) of the units on many of the 6 cu ft bailouts is better than that on the spare air. I don't think you would want a 1 piece unit on anything larger. Too easy to get damaged hanging off a heavy tank.

I offer no opinion on using spare-air, bailouts or ponys, way too much of that already. I don't own a spare-air. I have looked at them and considered them - for about 5 minutes. I do own and have practiced with a bailout bottle. It works from normal depths (30-90 feet). Right now its a decoration in my gear collection and my redundant air aupply remains on my buddies back. This is how I choose to dive. I might change my mind if my dive profiles change.
 
I personally think H2 Odysseys' units are superior to the spare air system. I have demo'd both at dive shops and sided on getting the H2 unit for solo diving especially. It's a bit larger then the spare air but cost about the same. It holds a bit more air and I feel is just an overall superior product.
Those are a newer resource, I think - or I didn't know about them when I got my pony 5 years ago. H2Odyssey...Air Systems Looks like they come in 6, 12, or 19 cf too.

Google Image Result for http://www.scubatoys.com/store/altair/pics/h2odyssey.jpg

h2odyssey.jpg
 
But that is not what usually occurs. When you run out of air there is a good chance your dive buddy is not standing in front of you on the bottom of the training pool waiting for you to give him the “out of air” sign.

He might be swimming around the other side of the coral head looking for fish or he may be facing another way swimming in the other direction.

That's different though. That's solo diving and sharing the reef with other solo divers. If you are going to dive solo, you should recognize it and equip yourself appropriately.

Even if he is close enough to get his attention, if you are out of air it is likely that he is low on air as well.

The two of you breathing on his tank will run him out of air very quickly.


There are some very good materials on gas planning. You might want to do a search on "rock bottom" or "minimum gas". This issue is very easily prevented.

If the person you are diving with is not someone you have really practiced out of air emergencies with, even when you give him the “out of air” sign he may not be willing to allow you to take his second stage and attach yourself to him....

You have a series of Darwin awards style reasons listed here. You can probably pick up a few more from Spareair.com. My favorite one there is "rental tank not completely filled". It really is quite humorous.

Last but certainly not least: Over 90,000 pieces of life support equipment have been recalled in the last 25 years. Of those, 48,000 have been since 1995, and in the last 2 years alone, there have been 40,000 pieces of equipment recalled.

Interesting stats.. now let's look at the dive fatality reports. How many diver deaths in 2007 started from a failed regulator? How many in 2006? In 2005? In 2004? (Hint: DAN publishes these types of reports every year.)

Is it possible that pony bottles is not the only way to protect yourself from gear failure?
 
That's different though. That's solo diving and sharing the reef with other solo divers. If you are going to dive solo, you should recognize it and equip yourself appropriately.
Did you read the thread, or just jump in...?
There are some very good materials on gas planning. You might want to do a search on "rock bottom" or "minimum gas". This issue is very easily prevented.
Interesting stats.. now let's look at the dive fatality reports. How many diver deaths in 2007 started from a failed regulator? How many in 2006? In 2005? In 2004? (Hint: DAN publishes these types of reports every year.)
Did you look? Reg problems are hight on the list, aren't they? So is diver error - buddies included. Travel to a dozen different airports alone, go diving on charter boats where you hope to match up with a decent diver from other singles, see what happens in the real world.
Is it possible that pony bottles is not the only way to protect yourself from gear failure?
Nope, but they are a resource. This is not a forum for "the one and only way to dive." I think we have one, tho...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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