question about newbies

[k ellis]

Greetings K ellis and for me personally if I know the new diver I do not hesitate to ask a few questions. If I know the instructor well enough I will ask him a few as well.
What irony that you pose this question as this type of situation just took place a few weekend ago. I learned that there are many different levels of conservative dive planning and new diver assessment.

I have seen new divers that are very capable of doing this dive with a experienced diver one on one. It is my personal belief that it takes really knowing the skill levels and comfort levels of your dive buddies and more importantly YOUR SELF!
I feel honest appraisal is a necessity and as others have mentioned greatly lacking in some areas. How many "experienced" divers have you seen that needed to revisit OW training in particular buoyancy control.

At the end of the day once you have spoken your mind respectfully it is their choice to do what ever dive they wish. Your conscious is clear end of story.
Dive safe and have fun!
CamG Keep diving....keep training....Keep learning!

Thanks CAM I guess I am just one who takes safety extremely serious. I think I was just afraid I was going to witness a fatality from lack of air but in the end everything went well

 

[CamG]

K ellis, I to take safety very serious as well and have been more than a little concerned several times. I know even though we try to promote conservatism, some will listen and some will not. The worst is when you are mocked for voicing your concern. After all concern for our fellow diver is only with good intentions not trying to force anything on anyone.

Natural selection is a cruel, harsh, but simple reality that we all accept. There is not always a second chance to learn from your lack of judgement. There is no substitute for conservatism and proper dive planning. Taking the time to gain proper training and experience is a critical factor.

I am not a dive nazi nor do I claim to be anything more than a novice at best. I have been diving just 4 years and moving into more advanced diving as of late. What I have learned is simple, the more training I complete the more I realize just how much I do not know and how much more there is to diving! One should never become bored or burnt out, there is so much out there to research and train for.
I love diving for I see no end but a pursuit of a lifetime.
Safe diving my friend stick to your guns and do not be discouraged! Your buddies will respect you and even thank you on occasion.
CamG Keep diving....keep training....keep learning!

 

[wadedeeper]

Ok when we all first started diving way back when we all had like 20 minutes at 60 feet and many of us had tanks that were almost looked like a coke bottle full of air at 120 feet when we finished the dive LOL. My question is since veteran divers are all too aware of newer divers having a high air consumption rate. How would you handle another veteran offering to take a newer diver to 100 feet and he has less then 10 logged dives? What if when you pointed out the potential hazards and the veteran insist it will be ok and the new diver cant be talked down???

Thal already mentioned that it depends on the conditions, but my question is what's prompting you to want to advise against it? Air consumption aside, as a certified diver, we are all responsible for ourselves. I guess I don't know what prompted the need to advise them against it (i.e. conditions, you know the diver and know they suffer problems, etc). Not disagreeing, just wanted to know if there were other factors that are playing a part of your decision to advise against.

 

[k ellis]

Thal already mentioned that it depends on the conditions, but my question is what's prompting you to want to advise against it? Air consumption aside, as a certified diver, we are all responsible for ourselves. I guess I don't know what prompted the need to advise them against it (i.e. conditions, you know the diver and know they suffer problems, etc). Not disagreeing, just wanted to know if there were other factors that are playing a part of your decision to advise against.

It being his 10th lifetime ever dive for one. Its kind of like to me driving a car. Would you put your 16 year old who just learned how to drive into a ford mustang cobra capable of almost 180 miles an hour as his first car? I just fear for people who really have never experienced any real sign of nitrogen narcosis. If a problem would have occured do new divers really understand an emergency ascent at 100 feet is not like an emergency ascent at 20 feet. If they look down at 100 feet and see they have 400 lbs of air left would they freak out and shoot to the surface. They are still new to buoyancy if they over inflate their bcd would they be able to get it under control before they shoot to the surface like a missle from a submarine? The list goes on and on

 

[Thalassamania]

I don't see 100 fsw as analogous to 180 mph. More like 80 mph with a driving coach aboard.

 

[k ellis]

Ok maybe I needed to clarify. I dont mean a kid with a 180 mph car would do drive it that fast either my point I was trying to make is just let them learn in a safe manner such as 20 dives or so then move slowly into deeper waters. I just dont feel a new diver should be exposed to the "Oh nothing is going to happen your with me" attitude many seniors have. Most times its safe with a good coach and I can agree with that. But in only 9 dives and 4 of them being 20 feet for 20 minutes that only leaves 3 dives to attest that their sac rate is low enough to accomodate deeper dives. Now if the next 3 were 60 feet and they were ok with it then I can see that maybe try a 70 foot then an 80 foot but build your profile up to where you know for sure you can do it safely.

 

[Teamcasa]

... Now if the next 3 were 60 feet and they were ok with it then I can see that maybe try a 70 foot then an 80 foot but build your profile up to where you know for sure you can do it safely.

Everybody's confidence improves at the same rate as their narcosis.

That said, if a diver has the basic skills under control (they are observable by most competent mentors/instructors/DM's) and a SAC that would insure a safe return, taking someone to 100' or so is not a huge issue. However, no one can predict another's susceptibility to narcosis without observing them. Some folks just don't do very well at 100' that do just fine at 60'

 

[nolatom]

I had about 100 dives, showed up alone in Pensacola for a morning dive, got buddied with a new diver on his 5th or 7th post-cert dive, first boat dive, first offshore ocean dive.

Thing is, this was a "special" trip, we paid extra fuel charge to go out to the Chevron platform, a reef in 2 pieces, topping out at about 80 and 90 feet (you locals know this one, it was "the" deep dive before the Oriskany was sunk nearby a couple years later. So you can't dive to 60 feet, really.

we were the only two unattached divers, so capt buddied us up. He was visiting from Colorado, SSI grad, certified in some lake or spring in New Mex., max depth I think around 50. but he seemed level-headed and sounded pretty well trained, so with some misgivings I figured, "let's try it", and told him to watch his pressure gauge like a hawk and how to signal psi.

Worked out great, though, he was pretty heads-up and relaxed for a new diver, didn't use air too much faster than I did, understood the hand signals and was generally a pretty good buddy. We got down to right about 100' on the deeper piece, and started up from 80 feet with about 1200 pounds for me and about 900 for him, easy ascent with a Pyle stop, on top with plenty left. he was quite stoked about the beauty of the dive, and that we actually went to 100'

My compliments to his instructor! You never know what kind of newbie you'll get matched with. This guy was quite good for that level of inexperience.

So it's hard for me to say when someone else should intervene...

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

..I just dont feel a new diver should be exposed to the "Oh nothing is going to happen your with me" attitude many seniors have....

You are 100% right with that comment.

What you've described is the dreaded "Trust Me" dive.... the one where a more experienced buddy talks the newer diver into a dive he/she is not ready for.

k ellis, your heart is 100% in the right place, and I think what some of us are saying mainly is "It Just Depends" with regard to your original question.

A good mentor will NOT take a diver that is not ready down to 100 feet, regardless of whether the diver has 10 or 200 dives.

The problem often lies with the skill level of the mentor.... can the mentor safely supervise a new diver at 100' (or any depth for that matter)?

Best wishes.

 

[adventurelarry]

I am a new diver, having less than 25 dives now. My OW check-off dives 3 & 4 were at the 75' depth. I am fortunate that I do not consume air fast and that I have good buoyancy control. The next day I was diving with a friend who is also a divemaster (5,ooo+ dives logged). We were diving for bugs near Jupiter, Florida. The dives sites that we went hunting were at 100' depth. I rocked! Not everyone will take to it as quickly or be fortunate enough to have a close friend be a mentor, but diving is an individual sport and you have to take responsibility for your abilities and be willing to say that you're not comfortable with a plan. If you are comfortable then you need to go forward knowing the risks.

I've got my goals and I'm working it out. Next dive is in 10 days!