Question about PADI training standards for Open Water Certification

[edwants2dive]

Please report this. No student should be without their instructor until they sign the paperwork saying that they are certified. I've seen instructors "bless" their students during a dive and that doesn't cut it. Get the paperwork done.

It will be reported. I appreciate the input. This is why Scubaboard is such a valuable resource.

 

[Doc]

After discussing your thoughts with the instructor or shop management- that would remove any lingering “tattle tale” feeling, yes, report it to the agency that the dive was being conducted under.

That’s really not SCUBA advice as much as it is what people should do, used to be called other things pre-PC days.

You might get enlightened, ignored, or argued with. All responses would likely be useful. You’re not really burning any bridges here, you’re not going to charter with a guy who violated standards and you actually felt the need to report, are you?

 

[yle]

It will be reported. I appreciate the input. This is why Scubaboard is such a valuable resource.

And rest assured you're doing the instructor a favor. Better that he gets a reprimand and a "refresher" on the standards now, when no one was hurt, than to continue doing things like this... until one of his students has an accident. That would pretty much ruin his life.

 

[JackD342]

It will be reported. I appreciate the input. This is why Scubaboard is such a valuable resource.

It sounds like you are certain it was PADI, right?
I can't tell from your post, do you know any of the students? At some point PADI quality management will want to speak with them rather than just an outside observer, and it might get traction much faster if it originates from a student.

 

[BikerBecca]

It will be reported. I appreciate the input. This is why Scubaboard is such a valuable resource.

Can I make a suggestion? Don't contact PADI directly. Contact the Dive Shop the Instructor works for and tell them about what you witnessed and why you are concerned and thought it wise to bring it to their attention.

We all makes mistakes. We are all only human. You don't want to ruin this person's career. I work for a big, well known, reputable dive shop. I messed up once. It didn't impact my students but I did something stupid and a fellow instructor (who I am still friends with and still hold in high regard as an instructor) let the dive shop owners know what happened and I was called into the office. Not a happy place. The toughest part of that for me was forgiving myself. Everyone else knew it was a rookie mistake and that I was being harder on myself then they ever could be. They watched me like a hawk after that and I redeemed myself 100 times over inside of a month.

If, however, you let the dive shop know and they do nothing and then you witness the same behavior that's a different story. I would then contact PADI and report the entire dive shop.

 

[JackD342]

Can I make a suggestion? Don't contact PADI directly. Contact the Dive Shop the Instructor works for and tell them about what you witnessed and why you are concerned and thought it wise to bring it to their attention.

We all makes mistakes. We are all only human. You don't want to ruin this person's career. I work for a big, well known, reputable dive shop. I messed up once. It didn't impact my students but I did something stupid and a fellow instructor (who I am still friends with and still hold in high regard as an instructor) let the dive shop owners know what happened and I was called into the office. Not a happy place. The toughest part of that for me was forgiving myself. Everyone else knew it was a rookie mistake and that I was being harder on myself then they ever could be. They watched me like a hawk after that and I redeemed myself 100 times over inside of a month.

If, however, you let the dive shop know and they do nothing and then you witness the same behavior that's a different story. I would then contact PADI and report the entire dive shop.

Generally good advice, but may not be that simple.
A couple of unknowns here - was the instructor with a shop, or an independent? If with a shop, was he an owner or an employee? That may influence the course of action you choose to take.
I generally agree with trying not to create conflict by taking a measured approach. But if you reach out to the shop first and don't come away with a pretty solid gut feeling that the situation will be addressed, then move on to the phone call right away rather than waiting to see if anything has changed through observation. If, heaven forbid, something happens in the future that could have been avoided by a timely communication today, will you wish you had taken a different action?

And PADI is not overly quick to drop their members. They have a pretty solid process for investigating a report, making sure they get the facts right, and then determining how to remediate training for a member as needed rather than just leaping to significant consequences. So it's not like reporting the issue will get him "fired" from PADI.

 

[BikerBecca]

Generally good advice, but may not be that simple.
A couple of unknowns here - was the instructor with a shop, or an independent? If with a shop, was he an owner or an employee? That may influence the course of action you choose to take.
I generally agree with trying not to create conflict by taking a measured approach. But if you reach out to the shop first and don't come away with a pretty solid gut feeling that the situation will be addressed, then move on to the phone call right away rather than waiting to see if anything has changed through observation. If, heaven forbid, something happens in the future that could have been avoided by a timely communication today, will you wish you had taken a different action.

And PADI is not overly quick to drop their members. They have a pretty solid process for investigating a report, making sure they get the facts right, and then determining how to remediate training for a member as needed rather than just leaping to significant consequences. So it's not like reporting the issue will get him "fired" from PADI.

Excellent points.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@edwants2dive,

Email qm@padi.com to start the process.

 

[TMHeimer]

The "mini dive" came into the PADI OW course 4-5 years ago. I think it is a great idea. My situation was this--
Let's say a class of 8-10 students. One instructor, 2 DMs. The students are of course to plan and execute the dive with no help. Pros follow them in case emergency help is needed. So, the group is divided into 3 separate "teams". The instructor and us 2 DMs each follow a team on their mini-dive. The way I read it that would violate standards since the instructor was not directly supervising 2 of the 3 teams. I gave it no thought, as the process seemed safe and logical to me. Perhaps I should have?
I believe there are other situations where a CI can be the only one directly supervising. Such as being on the bottom with the group as the instructor does individual CESAs. Or escorting a diver who is cold or is cramping back to shore. When I was an OW student, on OW dive 4 the DM lead me on the "tour" portion after all skills were done. Technically I wasn't certified, but had fulfilled all the requirements. At the end, the instructor congratulated me on being an OW diver. Someone posted saying it's not official until the paperwork is processed. Admit that I'm not the greatest on having standards memorized (at least not now, being "retired"), so I'm not sure.
Another thing I'm not sure on is DSD. I believe that under certain circumstances (maybe in OW?), with the proper additional training, a DM can lead Discover Scuba at a ratio of 2:1. These are not certified divers either and know way less than OW students who have completed all pool training.
I would imagine a lot of the above takes place at shops all the time--just throwing those thoughts out there.
I can't reply to any posters' comments as I'll actually be "computerless" most of next 2 months.
Glorious Connecticut's shore diving mecca here I come.....

 

[JackD342]

DM leading the tour portion with tight ratios after skills are done is part of the allowed plan.
They are OW divers once the paperwork (class folder) is signed off 100% by instructor and student. When paper PICs were the norm, a temporary card could be issued right then. Processing by PADI is not required to consider them a newly minted diver that can immediately go off for another fun dive without supervision.