Reasonable to limit bottom time to 45 min?

[bigduke12]

Just came back from a trip to Borneo. I did a one day diving trip consisting of three dives. I was really looking forward to it.

The group consisted of a divemaster/guide, 4 other divers and myself. The deepest we went was 18m, average probably 10/12m.

On the first dive, the divemaster made us surface after 45 minutes. I still had over 100 bar left. I thought maybe on of the others was short on air. No big deal.
The exact same thing happened on the second dive. 45 minutes then surface. This time I checked with the others. They all had between 80 and 100 bars.
The third was exactly the same. After 45 minutes we surfaced. We all had between 80 and 100+ bars left.

I did not say anything, but was pretty angry about the whole situation.


The divemaster changed the tanks after each dive himself, so he must have seen we all had more than sufficient air left to stay under quite a bit longer.

Also at no stage was I asked how many dives I had under my belt, experience etc.

I am pretty pissed off about the whole situation?:cussing:

 

[buddhasummer]

For multiple dives or for their staff it's not uncommon for some dive operators to limit dive time. I've often come across a 50min or 50 bar whichever comes first. I now ask this question whenever I'm travel diving. I've found most operators to be accommodating depending on cert/experience level and/or number of divers. As I'm poor and often travel dive out of season 90% of the time I call the dive. I assume you asked the reason for them calling the dive at 45mins? What did they say?

 

[bigduke12]

To be honest, I did not ask the question as to why they called the dives. As you say, I now assume there limit was 45 minutes. I was also a bit pissed off so did not want to get into an argument. I expect the maximum out of my hard earned cash. Am also poor, so I expect value for money.
It was actually my first dive trip overseas. All my other diving has been local.
I will write it off to school fees, and make sure I ask the right questions as you suggested, before I book my next one.
At the depth we were diving we were not even coming close to NDL's, and these were the only dives the divemaster was doing that day anyway.

 

[Scuba_Noob]

I'd say it's reasonable for a dive op to limit dive time. It would have been better if they had announced it to everyone and if you had asked them what was going on after the first dive.

Sometimes conflicts start just from miscommunication. There's no reason to hold all that negativity in when you could respectfully figure out the reasons behind this. Obviously they had a dive time limit, and you wanted to maximize your dive time. Maybe if you talked with them, they could have extended at least one of the dives. When I was on a dive vacation, the DM said that they were doing 45 minute dives, but they allowed me a 55 minute dive when I asked.

 

[DevonDiver]

What was your dive computer saying (NDL)? Or were you planning the dives on tables? Everyone in the group using the same method of dive planning?

Odd that you don't mention NDL in your post... you were planning your dives...and had accounted for accumulating nitrogen over a 3-dive repetitive day, yes?

Also odd is that you managed to jump into the water on three dives, without knowing what the dive plan/profile would be?

On another note: If someone turned up for diving, didn't plan/agree a dive profile etc.. then I wouldn't be particularly bothered to investigate their experience. Training and experience is irrelevant unless it is applied. Assume the worst and take the herd for a wander...

 

[bigduke12]

My dive computer showed plenty of time still available on all 3 dives. None of the dives ended anywhere remotely close to the NDL, as we were in relatively shallow water for most of the time. I have two computers, and the one I used (Mares Puck), is a lot more conservative than my Aeris Manta. I did mention NDL,s in my second post.

The extent of the planning given by the operator, was that we would swim around such and such a reef etc. Depths were obviously given on the map of the area. However, we were in shallow water most of the time.

At the max depths given, 45 minutes would have been acceptable, but as before we spent a lot of time in relatively shallow water. Not even close to the max depths. At one time we were in 6 meters for about 20 minutes.

I would think that the operator should enquire as to a divers experience, especially from a safety POV, as well as a business POV.

I know that I am experienced enough to dive under certain conditions, and if I was not comfortable with a dive I would have said something.

In my opinion, the operator is negligent if they do not have a brief chat about the experience of someone they are taking on a dive trip. This is their business. It is in their business interest to check experience.

If I do business with a new factory in China or India or where ever, I investigate as much as I can about them. Otherwise I am negligent, towards the interest of my company.

You are obviously a dive operator. Correct? I am not in anyway attacking dive operators, don't get me wrong. However, you made a statement, that under conditions mentioned above, you would not enquire about a divers experience. Are you serious?
Is it not in your best interest to know as much about a diver you are taking in the water as you can?

 

[Dive the World]

50bar 50mins is the basic rule of thumb - like a safety stop is a basic rule of thumb.

What were your expectations? Did you discuss your expectations?

Were you hoping to do a 60min dive?

Here is another rule of thumb. Don't be angry - ask questions and come to consensus about what can be done differently.

Talking it out would be much better than being an angry and diving.

 

[RJP]

You can be a bit miffed after the first dive that they hadn't told you the dive plan for Dive 1... right up until the point that you didn't ASK what the dive plan was BEFORE entering the water on Dive 1. After that, it's sort of all on you. If you had spoken up you could have agreed to the plan, come up with a different plan, etc. It takes two to have poor communication.

 

[windapp]

I have to agree with RJP, and DevonDiver. If you don't bother to participate in the dive planning, then you don't get a say in the dive plan, and can't be angry if the divemaster limits the dive. You seriously had the divemaster do things for you like changing tanks, and then expected him to take your 100+ dives into consideration?

 

[DevonDiver]

My dive computer showed plenty of time still available on all 3 dives. None of the dives ended anywhere remotely close to the NDL, as we were in relatively shallow water for most of the time. I have two computers, and the one I used (Mares Puck), is a lot more conservative than my Aeris Manta. I did mention NDL,s in my second post.

That's relevant. However, all of the group should have been diving on computers, otherwise the dive guide (according to agency teaching) should be running an acceptable profile for those using tables.

3x 18m repetitive dives sounds about right @45 minutes, assuming tables NDLs weren't going to be hammered.

The extent of the planning given by the operator, was that we would swim around such and such a reef etc. Depths were obviously given on the map of the area. However, we were in shallow water most of the time.

Divemasters often give an outline plan - that's correct by how they are taught (qualified divers being expected to plan their own dives, within that outline) and, in practice, it is also typical (note: typically) for groups of mixed experience - allowing some deviation in dive planning within the group (to prevent issues as you have raised).

That said, it's important to determine whether the DM is providing an outline plan, in which you can create your own sub-plan, or whether they are just doing a sloppy job of briefing. It's easy for a DM to fall into an 'underwater shepherd' mentality - "you follow me, I'll do all the thinking...". That is, however, easy rectified by some pro-active communication by the customer.

At the max depths given, 45 minutes would have been acceptable, but as before we spent a lot of time in relatively shallow water. Not even close to the max depths. At one time we were in 6 meters for about 20 minutes.

Again, if one member of the group were using tables/depth gauge/timer, then a multi-level profile would have been defunct.

I would think that the operator should enquire as to a divers experience, especially from a safety POV, as well as a business POV. ...the operator is negligent if they do not have a brief chat about the experience of someone they are taking on a dive trip. This is their business. It is in their business interest to check experience.... under conditions mentioned above, you would not enquire about a divers experience....Is it not in your best interest to know as much about a diver you are taking in the water as you can?

It's important to appraise experience with customer divers, of course. C-cards, log-books and a "brief chat" all help with that, but aren't categorical in defining capability. The point I was trying to make was that an experienced DM, using their eyeballs and judgement, can make a far more reliable assessment of dive competence than a customer's "self-declaration" of experience and skill.