Rebreathers (CCR) What Recreational divers need to know

[stuartv]

@stuartv sounds like you and your buddy are well versed with each other's gear which is great. My concern is that other ow divers know to ask the questions if their ccr buddy isn't forth coming about things. Also I am concerned about the potential at our local dive sites where we see CCR divers fairly regularly on shallow dives where new and inexperienced divers are diving. The CCR divers are there taking advantage of the no bubbles to do photography.

That is why I put this question in Basic

Right. My real point is that I kind of agree with those who have said that they don't agree with trying to teach CCR basics in an OW class. It's too complicated. Thus why I was suggesting a simple approach that is pretty much the same thing you'd do with any buddy, CCR or OC.

Have a pre-dive talk and go over emergency stuff, including OOA. If you buddy can't donate you gas, then don't buddy with that person. If they won't explain how you should deal with them, don't buddy with them. All true whether your buddy is OC or CCR.

Try to have a chat with any other CCR divers on your boat.

Bottom line: If you see a CCR diver in the water, unless you have had a pre-dive conversation with them to the contrary, assume (i.e. conduct your dive as if) they are not going to be able to help you if you go OOA.

From what my regular CCR buddy has told me about other CCR divers he has been in class with, I wouldn't have much confidence in swimming up to a CCR diver and asking for gas and having them respond in a useful way, anyway. How much CCR training goes on where the CCR diver is specifically trained on responding to other divers who are OOA? I'm sure the good instructors cover it. But, I'm not sure they ALL do. At least with a random OC diver, they are almost certainly going to have an alternate air supply on them. And if they don't, they CAN share the one they are using, if they have to (and are willing and don't panic themselves).

 

[doctormike]

There is nothing officially taught about rebreathers in a rescue class, and I would bet 90% of rescue instructors would not have a clue what to teach if they decided it needed to be added on its own.

As for surfacing the unconscious CCR diver, I was required to do it when I was working on my TDI tech instructor certification. It was not that TDI required it be done to a CCR diver; it was that I was required to surface an unconscious diver, and my instructor acted as the victim while he was using CCR. I have demonstrated this many times on open circuit, but when I tried to do it with him, I failed with the usual approach. I got behind him, reached around to hold his regulator in his mouth, and found I couldn't reach it--not even close. The CCR unit was just too big. I had to make up some sort of a front and under approach that I can't even describe here. If I had to teach it now, I would have no idea what to do.

Bigger than a set of doubles? I did this in Mod 1, and it worked OK as long as you get in the right position (not right behind the diver, but higher up). There are buoyancy issues that aren't as much of a problem on OC. If you are doing this in dry suits, the rescuer now has six gas filled spaces to vent on the way up!

 

[boulderjohn]

Bigger than a set of doubles? I did this in Mod 1, and it worked OK as long as you get in the right position (not right behind the diver, but higher up). There are buoyancy issues that aren't as much of a problem on OC. If you are doing this in dry suits, the rescuer now has six gas filled spaces to vent on the way up!

And we were indeed using dryuits.

 

[doctormike]

And we were indeed using dryuits.

OK, but you were on OC, so only 5 gas filled spaces... MUCH easier, huh?

 

[boulderjohn]

OK, but you were on OC, so only 5 gas filled spaces... MUCH easier, huh?

Oh, it was a piece of cake.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Guys my purpose in this thread is not to teach a basic Rebreather course to Open water divers. I suspect OW divers that do technical diving or dive with a Rebreather diver regularly know stuff about the systems.

My goal is to let Open Water divers in the Basic forum know some key things. Most notably about air sharing and potentially unrealistic expectations about how a Rebreather diver can help you as an Open Circuit diver. That is why this thread is in Basic and I didn't go into the CCR forum to ask questions

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Don't get me wrong here. I do care about the CCR diver and am glad to see the pics of the lever and know to watch for red lights and that the diver is functioning. Those are really simple things I can take away from this that may help some day. That is what I was hoping for.. simple simple stuff .. easy to undertand.. I am blonde after all

 

[stuartv]

Right. And the simple answers are:

- A CCR diver may or may not be able to share air with you. It just depends.

- If a CCR diver CAN share air with you, the process can be completely different from one diver to the next and even from one dive to the next. It just depends.

- How to tell if a CCR diver is in trouble, based on their unit and electronics, varies. Barring obvious physical symptoms (e.g. they are unresponsive to you, they are unconscious, they are convulsing, etc.), how to tell, well, it just depends.

- If a CCR diver is in trouble, what you can do to help totally depends on what unit they have and how it's configured. It just depends.

- A CCR diver can run out of gas to inflate their BCD, but still have gas to breathe (at least for a little while). So, they could go negative and possibly need assistance, but that does not NECESSARILY mean they need to make an emergency ascent to the surface. It just depends.

- if you see a CCR diver during your own normal, recreational dive, the fact that you do not have a deco obligation does not necessarily mean that the CCR diver does not. They might have gotten in way before you or gone way deeper than you. It just depends.

In other words, there are no simple answers. Except, have a good pre-dive discussion with your buddy (whether they are OC or CCR).

Probably the best thing anyone could really do is find a good instructor and take a Rescue course where you make sure ahead of time that the instructor will teach you how to deal with a CCR diver. Finding "a good instructor" includes to mean finding one that is actually qualified to teach you how to deal with a rescue on a CCR diver.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Of course if you are diving with a CCR buddy a buddy check and directions are necessary.

Simple to me is...

If I see a CCR diver with a slung cylinder.. I know he has a chance of sharing air.. If he doesn't i will assume not
If I see red lights flashing.. I will try to point it out to him.
If he doesn't respond I will look for a bail out lever or button like in the picture
I need to keep the mouthpiece in place so his loop doesn't fill
If I can get him to the surface while doing that great if not I get help
I can only do what I can do and I hope non of this is ever needed.

 

[JohnnyC]

The (very very very) basic information an OC diver needs to know diving with a CC diver is:

1)How to identify the presence of a problem.
2)How to react to said problem.
3)Equipment considerations that dictate how to react to said problem.

Each of those points has a myriad of possible answers dictated by the configuration, familiarity of both divers involved, and the method of failure. This goes for problems with either the OC or CC diver. There's no hard rules for this because CCR, by it's very nature, differs quite significantly depending on the dive, the equipment, and the procedure to affect a rescue. Trying to give specifics is sort of a losing battle, because what works for an OC diver with a Poseidon diver, is completely different to an OC diver with a Meg diver, to a JJ diver to a KISS diver to a Revo diver to an SF2 diver. And that goes for the OC diver having an issue too.

Ultimately the answer is the OC buddy just needs to ask the question, "what if something goes wrong" and go from there. Trying to get any more specific than that is just going to try and cover too many "what-ifs" for this thread.