Recreational OW diving with long hoses (or the 'usual' r/h hose routing) ...

[danvolker]

Or you might have gone for the alternate yourself in the first place. In each of the cases I know about personally (from being nearby when one happened and from hearing friends describe them), the OOA diver went for the alternate without signalling. That is, I believe, the reason that BSAC teaches to allow the OOA diver to take the alternate instead of waiting for a donation.

Of course. a halfway decent buddy will see the sudden issue as it occurs, and be offering the primary as the OOA diver/buddy heads toward him....

 

[roydude]

That is, I believe, the reason that BSAC teaches to allow the OOA diver to take the alternate instead of waiting for a donation.

PADI teach the same, the first AAS drill you learn is to move in and grab it, not wait (of course, that's following an odd silent 'conversation' about being out of air and "may I grab you by the occy?").

(For us British fellows though, it's considered to be better manners to drown while you politely wait for donation than to be rude and grab it.

 

[boulderjohn]

PADI teach the same, the first AAS drill you learn is to move in and grab it, not wait.

That is not an official PADI position. The wording of the PADI standard is quite intentionally vague in that regard. The precise method is up to the instructor.

 

[Thalassamania]

I have a major concern about octo coming out from left side. What about the diver needs his/her own octo?? He/she will have a up side down octo. Most likely can't full purge water out of it to breath comfortable.

The advantage of the hogarthian long hose is that if you decide you need to be close to the receiver, you don't need to deploy the entire 7ft. Let the hose wrap around the canister, it will be much shorter, and gareentee in physical contact range.

I actually think being in physical contact maybe a bad thing. Here is my thought. If you and another diver hold onto each other, who is controlling the mutual buoyancy? One diver can be positive, other can be negative. If for some reason, you let go of each other, one will sink and one will float up. A long hose allow enough room for both diver to control his/her own buoyancy independently, much more likely to maintain over ascent rate. In the case of panic diver, I think even if you are in close physical contact, things may happen so far that you still can't control the panic diver.

With a 40" (or longer) hose it is easy to reverse the regulator for personal use. Divers should, when sharing air and ascending (traveling horizontal is a special case) be in firm contact with just one diver (the donor) controlling buoyancy for the pair.

Or you might have gone for the alternate yourself in the first place. In each of the cases I know about personally (from being nearby when one happened and from hearing friends describe them), the OOA diver went for the alternate without signalling. That is, I believe, the reason that BSAC teaches to allow the OOA diver to take the alternate instead of waiting for a donation.

Without a specified secured location and a specified means of securing, the "discover where it is and what you have to do," approach is a recipe for disaster.

Of course. a halfway decent buddy will see the sudden issue as it occurs, and be offering the primary as the OOA diver/buddy heads toward him....

Hear! Hear!

 

[boulderjohn]

Without a specified secured location and a specified means of securing, the "discover where it is and what you have to do," approach is a recipe for disaster.

I am not saying that is the way to do it; it is not how I do it.

I am just saying that there is some evidence that it is very common for an OOA diver to swim toward another diver, spot the alternate, and take it without signalling. No matter what the donor has been trained to do, there is a very good chance that this is what will happen. It doesn't have to be your buddy--it might just be another diver in the vicinity.

 

[Thalassamania]

I have a major concern about octo coming out from left side. What about the diver needs his/her own octo?? He/she will have a up side down octo. Most likely can't full purge water out of it to breath comfortable.

The advantage of the hogarthian long hose is that if you decide you need to be close to the receiver, you don't need to deploy the entire 7ft. Let the hose wrap around the canister, it will be much shorter, and gareentee in physical contact range.

I actually think being in physical contact maybe a bad thing. Here is my thought. If you and another diver hold onto each other, who is controlling the mutual buoyancy? One diver can be positive, other can be negative. If for some reason, you let go of each other, one will sink and one will float up. A long hose allow enough room for both diver to control his/her own buoyancy independently, much more likely to maintain over ascent rate. In the case of panic diver, I think even if you are in close physical contact, things may happen so far that you still can't control the panic diver.

With a 40" (or longer) hose it is easy to reverse the regulator for personal use. Divers should, when sharing air and ascending (traveling horizontal is a special case) be in firm contact with just one diver (the donor) controlling buoyancy for the pair.

Or you might have gone for the alternate yourself in the first place. In each of the cases I know about personally (from being nearby when one happened and from hearing friends describe them), the OOA diver went for the alternate without signalling. That is, I believe, the reason that BSAC teaches to allow the OOA diver to take the alternate instead of waiting for a donation.

Without a specified secured location and a specified means of securing, the "discover where it is and what you have to do," approach is a recipe for disaster.

Of course. a halfway decent buddy will see the sudden issue as it occurs, and be offering the primary as the OOA diver/buddy heads toward him....

Hear! Hear!

I am not saying that is the way to do it; it is not how I do it.

I am just saying that there is some evidence that it is very common for an OOA diver to swim toward another diver, spot the alternate, and take it without signalling. No matter what the donor has been trained to do, there is a very good chance that this is what will happen. It doesn't have to be your buddy--it might just be another diver in the vicinity.

Not suggesting that you do, just suggesting that the lack of such definitions, on the part of agencies, wreaks (to my sniffer) of reckless and dangerous. Taking the secondary, unless it is tied about my neck, causes me no heartburn ... once things settled down the regs can be sorted out to the best effect.

 

[roydude]

That is not an official PADI position. The wording of the PADI standard is quite intentionally vague in that regard. The precise method is up to the instructor.

Well you're a PADI MSDT so I'll take your word for it (can't be bothered to dig through my boxes for my ins. manual to check!), but I've always seen it taught that way the first time though - the OOD signals, the donor just raises their arms to keep out f the way and the OOD locates and 'gets' the occy etc...

 

[boulderjohn]

Well you're a PADI MSDT so I'll take your word for it (can't be bothered to dig through my boxes for my ins. manual to check!), but I've always seen it taught that way the first time though - the OOD signals, the donor just raises their arms to keep out f the way and the OOD locates and 'gets' the occy etc...

I had that fully clarified when I contacted PADI regarding a claim made by someone that using a long hose and bungied necklace violated PADI standards (it doesn't).

Here are the wordings for how the skill is described in the standards:

CW #1: Breathe from an alternate air source supplied by another diver for at least 30 seconds.

CW #3: Respond to air depletion by signaling “out of air,” and securing and breathing from an alternate air source supplied by a buddy. Continue for at least one minute while swimming.

OW #2:
11. Perform each role: In a stationary position, one person signals “out of air” and “share air,” and secures and breathes from an alternate air source provided by another diver; the other diver provides the air source.
12. Ascend properly using an alternate air source and establish positive buoyancy at the surface. Act as either donor or receiver.​

Notice how neutral the language is. Any of the common gear configurations and methods can be used.

 

[DepthCharge]

Read the last 2 or 3 pages of this...........IMHO it's BS. An OOA diver is going to grab the reg out of your mouth period. He not going to look for an octo...........he's freakin' about to drown, he going to go for the one that he see's working. I've had one OOA diver do this. Glad I had the long hose and the bunged octo, made life much easier.
Later,
John

 

[Nemrod]

I do not understand why these threads evolve into this rabbit hole of anecdotalisams. Any rational observer of the real world would see that the vast, vast majority of divers donate an "octopus" second which is located in the chest area, not their primary and this is the standard training world wide. There is no reason the octopus cannot be necklaced with the pull away necklace and presented to the OOA diver same as the long hose primary is for those practitioners. There is no rule stating that the "octopus" second must be dragged behind the diver bumping over the coral heads and filling with sand, necklace it, secure it to a D ring with a keeper, put it in an octo pocket, many ways it can be done. The donating diver simply presents the octopus to the OOA diver. Why is this difficult?

Perhaps some need to improve the class of diver they hang with if they "freak" just because they run out of a air. These hose arguments are non productive, the OOA diver, give them a regulator, take them to the surface, done deal.

I tend to have an aversion to mayhem, I may just hit the eject button and give the "freaking out" diver the whole enchilada and take myself a leisurely swim to the surface while they sort it all out. I think they will take whatever hose I give them and be happy with it.

And on the subject, a 36 to 40 inch hose is plenty long for side by side swimming.

N