undrwater
Contributor
I'm not sure SHOULD is the right question, but I WOULD buy if they decided to add one.
Should Shearwater add Air Integration to its computers?
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drrich2
Contributor
On the original discussion, the premise was that this would be done for Shearwater computers targeting the rec. market, not tec. Since the current offering amounts to a petrel or perdix in rec. mode, AI might be a worthwhile option in a separate model, or least make the transmitter optional.
If price without transmitter doesn't rise and reliability isn't compromised, best of both worlds.
---------- Post added January 10th, 2016 at 12:07 AM ----------
Petrels have often been recommended on the forum...to recreational divers. Likely looking for their 1st dive computer. The argument has been made that it's superior for rec. diving to alternatives (sometimes based on a recommender's assertion that A.I. is useless, which many hotly refute). Regardless of what we think Shearwater should do, there's a natural process that may unfold...
I read in another thread that less than 2% of rec. divers progress into tec. diving. Let's call it 2% for sake of argument. I'm making up some other figures for sake of discussion. For sake of argument, let's say Shearwater sells a computer to 1/2 of all tec. divers in a region in the United States that has 10,000 divers. Out of 10,000 divers, 1 in 100 buys a Shearwater computer, so 100 Petrels/Perdixes.
I see why scuba industry products are said be be a niche industry!!!
But 98% of that 10,000 divers never do tec. 9,800 rec.-only divers. Due to many competing options in a widely variable market (e.g.: cheap consoles up through LiquiVision Omnix & Suunto Eon Steel), let's say Shearwater can only sell 1 computer to 1 in 100 rec.-only divers. Ouch! So, Shearwater sells 98 Petrels/Perdixes to rec.-only divers.
If I did my math right, after a few years the Shearwater customer base is roughly 50/50 tec./rec. A substantial portion of the rec. community wants A.I. Shearwater is a company legendary in scuba for its dedication to customer service and high customer satisfaction. Other features the rec. community wants will also bear consideration.
In the end, it may not matter what we think Shearwater should do. In several years, it may not matter so much in hindsight what they thought they should do now. Market forces may decide. Whether it's a Perdix in rec. mode, or a separate rec. only/restricted version, we may see more rec. features added. Given the at times vehement opposition to sullying the Petrel with rec.-specific features, I hope it's a separate version (which should make everyone body, though some will rationalize ways not to be!).
P.S.: Apple got mentioned in 1 thread. They offer several product lines, but do not try to be all things to all people. They target product categories where they can bring a revolutionary advance. Compare their lineup diversity to Sony, Samsung, etc... Nowhere close. You can have a modest array of premium products done well.
P.S.#2: Basically posted the same thing in the thread on whether Shearwater should make a purely rec. computer, since I think the A.I. & rec.-focus are very interwoven.
If price without transmitter doesn't rise and reliability isn't compromised, best of both worlds.
---------- Post added January 10th, 2016 at 12:07 AM ----------
Petrels have often been recommended on the forum...to recreational divers. Likely looking for their 1st dive computer. The argument has been made that it's superior for rec. diving to alternatives (sometimes based on a recommender's assertion that A.I. is useless, which many hotly refute). Regardless of what we think Shearwater should do, there's a natural process that may unfold...
I read in another thread that less than 2% of rec. divers progress into tec. diving. Let's call it 2% for sake of argument. I'm making up some other figures for sake of discussion. For sake of argument, let's say Shearwater sells a computer to 1/2 of all tec. divers in a region in the United States that has 10,000 divers. Out of 10,000 divers, 1 in 100 buys a Shearwater computer, so 100 Petrels/Perdixes.
I see why scuba industry products are said be be a niche industry!!!
But 98% of that 10,000 divers never do tec. 9,800 rec.-only divers. Due to many competing options in a widely variable market (e.g.: cheap consoles up through LiquiVision Omnix & Suunto Eon Steel), let's say Shearwater can only sell 1 computer to 1 in 100 rec.-only divers. Ouch! So, Shearwater sells 98 Petrels/Perdixes to rec.-only divers.
If I did my math right, after a few years the Shearwater customer base is roughly 50/50 tec./rec. A substantial portion of the rec. community wants A.I. Shearwater is a company legendary in scuba for its dedication to customer service and high customer satisfaction. Other features the rec. community wants will also bear consideration.
In the end, it may not matter what we think Shearwater should do. In several years, it may not matter so much in hindsight what they thought they should do now. Market forces may decide. Whether it's a Perdix in rec. mode, or a separate rec. only/restricted version, we may see more rec. features added. Given the at times vehement opposition to sullying the Petrel with rec.-specific features, I hope it's a separate version (which should make everyone body, though some will rationalize ways not to be!).
P.S.: Apple got mentioned in 1 thread. They offer several product lines, but do not try to be all things to all people. They target product categories where they can bring a revolutionary advance. Compare their lineup diversity to Sony, Samsung, etc... Nowhere close. You can have a modest array of premium products done well.
P.S.#2: Basically posted the same thing in the thread on whether Shearwater should make a purely rec. computer, since I think the A.I. & rec.-focus are very interwoven.
gcarter
Contributor
People are talking about a SW with AI at a lower price point than the Petrel? H*ll, AI transmitters alone cost more than many rec computers. I paid a h*ll of a lot less for my Petrel 2 than any of the AI options I have seen.
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DevonDiver
N/A
Shearwater Petrel (and now, I'm sure the Perdix) are arguably the best computer on the market. There are a number of reasons for that success...
1. Dedicated tech diving functionality.
2. Outstanding customer service.
What makes the Petrel so popular with tech divers is that it is uncompromising to their core needs. There's very little superfluous functionality... and what functionality it provides is user-adjustable.
Adding features that would be deemed superfluous by Shearwater's core market (tech divers) would be seen as a compromise... a sellout.
The machine would have superfluous functions... and people might then question value. "why am I paying for x, y and z... when I only want a, b and c...?"
Serious tech divers just don't want AI. It offers no benefit in safety and simplicity. It does cause procedural and protocol issues; such as gas analysis, gas input and gas switching. It adds links to the accident chain that don't need to be there.
AI is popular with recreational divers... Using a single gas. That's understandable. It's not popular with technical divers using multiple gasses under strict protocols. That's understandable also (or should be, if you understand the Tech mindset and principles).
Of course, Shearwater could produce a dedicated recreational computer. They could load it with every junk function, novelty and gadget known to diving... after all, that's how many manufacturers operate. They could use the reputation of the Predator/Petrel/Perdix to flog overpriced junk on the unsuspecting recreational divers.
It'd probably make them money to do so...
But I think they'd lose RESPECT....and respect is what makes Shearwater special.
Tech users respect Shearwater.
Shearwater respects tech users.
I'd love it to stay that way...
1. Dedicated tech diving functionality.
2. Outstanding customer service.
What makes the Petrel so popular with tech divers is that it is uncompromising to their core needs. There's very little superfluous functionality... and what functionality it provides is user-adjustable.
Adding features that would be deemed superfluous by Shearwater's core market (tech divers) would be seen as a compromise... a sellout.
The machine would have superfluous functions... and people might then question value. "why am I paying for x, y and z... when I only want a, b and c...?"
Serious tech divers just don't want AI. It offers no benefit in safety and simplicity. It does cause procedural and protocol issues; such as gas analysis, gas input and gas switching. It adds links to the accident chain that don't need to be there.
AI is popular with recreational divers... Using a single gas. That's understandable. It's not popular with technical divers using multiple gasses under strict protocols. That's understandable also (or should be, if you understand the Tech mindset and principles).
Of course, Shearwater could produce a dedicated recreational computer. They could load it with every junk function, novelty and gadget known to diving... after all, that's how many manufacturers operate. They could use the reputation of the Predator/Petrel/Perdix to flog overpriced junk on the unsuspecting recreational divers.
It'd probably make them money to do so...
But I think they'd lose RESPECT....and respect is what makes Shearwater special.
Tech users respect Shearwater.
Shearwater respects tech users.
I'd love it to stay that way...
How so, Andy? What is being discussed is an AI version. That means the bare bones ones currently on the market would remain there.
I fail to see why a company would be a "sellout" and "lose respect" for catering for divers with different needs. I also fail to see how AI would be "loading it with junk function". Not useful to tec divers does not equate junk, or does it?
The logic behind rec divers requests seem pretty solid to me:
1 - Shearwater arguably makes the best computers for reasonable prices
2 - many rec divers would benefit from AI
3 - would be nice to have the best computers with AI
How that can be detrimental to the tec community is beyond me.
DevonDiver
N/A
pedro_rj:
Shearwater made the best technical diving instruments for several years. What made them the best technical diving instruments made them less optimum recreational diving instruments.
But 'tech is cool'... So recreational divers want them.
But recreational divers don't want the functionality that makes them the best technical diving instruments...
So what, exactly, would make a 'recreational' Petrel the best recreational computer?
The screen? No...
The algorithm? No...
The size? No....
What people are asking for is a Suunto with the name Shearwater on it.... in a 'cool' black case with bolts holding the screen on... and a technical 'heritage' that makes the user seem to be a more accomplished, trained or educated than they actually are...
The same type of customers are evident in every market. Brand label snobs, who want cheap and simple, but want it to look prestige.
I cite, in analogy, the Porsche Boxter.... a cheap Volkswagon with a cool supercar-heritage brand name for people who don't want deal with the reality of driving a supercar. You don't need to be an accomplished driver to cruise around in a Porsche Boxter... but you can imagine you are... let others imagine you are...
The Mazda MX5 was a far better car in the same performance range.... but it didn't have the 'cool' heritage name.
A dozen existing rec computers already fulfill exactly what divers are asking for on this thread.... But they want a cool 'tech heritage' name and image... not Suunto, Mares etc etc
Porsche made money out of the Boxter... but it seriously lost reputation. It became an embrassment... and deterred sales to Porsche's core market. The Boxter was a 'hairdressers' car. Porsche became the only supercar manufacturer to have a faux supercar in their line.
Should Shearwater make a faux tech computer? A sheep in wolf's clothing? How would that benefit them?
Dollars in the bank at the cost of reputation? That's called selling out... Greed, not prestige. The next, inevitable step would likely be a real sellout... and Shearwater would get swept up by one of the big, nasty companies...
Look at how they describe themselves. Powerful, Simple, Reliable. That is what they are. That's their core mission and belief. Not here's more crap to compete with everyone else who can't match our service, support, and response to our primary market. We'll dilute our brand and reputation with transmitter failures, catering to non thinking divers, and just trying to make a buck with flash and no substance. If you want that and a computer that locks you out, buy something else.
Remember that Shearwater is a business, and good business needs to grow its market share.
If Shearwater could integrate an AI on its computer - especially if it could read other's transmitters - they would take over a large share of the Galileo market. Not all of it, because Galileo folk tend to be data addicts. The Shearwater desktop would need to be expanded to capture the rest of it.
The AI "on / off" could simply be a switch in the settings. The current fans would see nothing different. The AI screen would been just another choice of view. Shearwater's current "rec" setting and display is masterful in that it entices recreational divers who have the wherewithal to purchase their computers. Once bitten, forever addicted!
I find the opinion that a business shouldn't do something because someone, somewhere may misuse its products totally over the top controlling.
If Shearwater could integrate an AI on its computer - especially if it could read other's transmitters - they would take over a large share of the Galileo market. Not all of it, because Galileo folk tend to be data addicts. The Shearwater desktop would need to be expanded to capture the rest of it.
The AI "on / off" could simply be a switch in the settings. The current fans would see nothing different. The AI screen would been just another choice of view. Shearwater's current "rec" setting and display is masterful in that it entices recreational divers who have the wherewithal to purchase their computers. Once bitten, forever addicted!
I find the opinion that a business shouldn't do something because someone, somewhere may misuse its products totally over the top controlling.
Most, if not all, other brand dive computers with AI give you the option to buy the computer with or without the AI transmitter (and therefore you have or not have the AI feature). I don't see the problem why Shearwater can't have something similar, in any mode, and leave it to the user to decide for themselves if they want the feature on or off just like the other computer features available to them.
I find the attitude of some that "it shouldn't" with the threat "we will lose respect for the company" very snobbish and arrogant to say the absolute least. Even if you lost the "respect," who cares if the company and their product still functions with the same reliability and value it provides?
It would be foolish and down right stupid if the company reaches a stagnant state with no increase in market share while others surpass it and eat up its market share. These snobbish fans will do the company no good when the company falls behind and even goes out of business because others eat up its market share.
BTW, just wait until another bigger fish eats it up as what has happened to several other companies in the last couple of years.
I find the attitude of some that "it shouldn't" with the threat "we will lose respect for the company" very snobbish and arrogant to say the absolute least. Even if you lost the "respect," who cares if the company and their product still functions with the same reliability and value it provides?
It would be foolish and down right stupid if the company reaches a stagnant state with no increase in market share while others surpass it and eat up its market share. These snobbish fans will do the company no good when the company falls behind and even goes out of business because others eat up its market share.
BTW, just wait until another bigger fish eats it up as what has happened to several other companies in the last couple of years.
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DevonDiver
N/A
You mean like PADI did?
We have enough scuba equipment manufacturers peddling junk to satisfy 'customer demand'.... demands that are created by marketing departments selling us a false notion that 'more is better'.
Shearwater triumphed in the Tech computer market by addressing honest needs, not following the trend of creating fictitious function demands. Tech divers appreciate that.
How would they triumph in the recreational market? By abandoning that approach and copying the duplicitous 'want' creation that other manufacturers use to boost profits? By abandoning their obvious principles?
The big problem with most dive computer (most equipment, honestly) manufacturers is that they make what sells. At the same time, their advertising departments are brainwashing divers to create a demand for nonsense features and functions.... It's all 'up-selling'.
The whole faux-tech gimmick also panders to what sells. Recreational divers don't want real tech functionality... just the impression of it. The image of it...
What people want is a gimmicky rec computer, wrapped up in the guise of a tech computer, so they can enjoy the illusion of operating an instrument with true technical diving heritage and renown.
If Shearwater took the insides of a ****ty Viper 2 and glued them inside a Shearwater case then people would be salivating and singing praises....
Its laughable...
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