Sobering dive tonight.

[Kaffphine]

I'm just getting started in cold water diving...with a dry suit, first one was this Sunday. Tonight I went out with a group of usuals to a local quarry, water temp 42F air not much more than that. Now since I had done a lot of night diving before, I didn't think making one of my first dives up here night was going to be a big deal. The guy I was diving with knows that I'm just getting into cold water and the drysuit, in fact he tagged along Sunday. For the most part the dive went as would be expected, I played with boyancy ...went up went down went back down still don't have it. We set limits of 45min, 1000psi or until I got cold. There's a difference between being cold from your hood flooding and being cold that you're coming up. I need to find out where that is. about 30 mins into the dive I was cold and decided to call time up, with my light in hand I couldn't use that hand to sign 'time'. So instead I told him that I reached the air limit and it was time to come up, somthing I could do with one hand and still use the light to lumiant what I was signing. This is point number one of things that didn't set well with me about tonight, although I found another way to let him know what I wanted us to do I couldn't let him know WHY. There a set of stairs to exit from, apon getting there I tried to take off my fins and realized I couldn't feel anything. Now, not being use to thick gloves I can't really feel what I'm doing underwater with my gear, but I can feel when my hand runs into something. When I was taking off my fins I couldn't even feel that much... Point number two about tonight. In the process of tring to get them off I let him know I couldn't feel anything. Later on the dock, he had asked if my hands were cold, I didn't know I couldn't feel em. By the time I got the fins off it was hard to think about anything but how cold I was. I think he picked up on it because he talked me through everthing from there to the fire... Point number three, although I'm rather glad he picked up on it and did it, it does bother me that he HAD to do it (Or I might have ended up by the fire in my trimlan shell). I got back to the shack and took off my gloves, my hands were red... I'm talking that nice purdy lobster red you see in Red Lobster commericals. I've been out of the water almost five hours now and I can't decide if my hands are red or blue, or if this is a new color. With the concern for being so cold I couldn't get to my DryEar sooner, which added one more pleasure to the evening. The distraction and lack of concentration is disturbing, this post is taking me forever!!(I've actually fallen asleep), when I think about this tomorrow and afterwards it's probably gonna be downright scary... Point number four. The 40 min drive home took me 2 hrs. Had to keep stopping, if there was someone I could have called my car would probably be sitting somewhere tonight.

Before I hit the water again I'm getting some serious info on hypothemia, my question to the board is what kind of difference is there in consideration for diving... depth, what to do when you realize you're too cold, ect. BTW, I am getting back in the water even if it happens to be cold.

Alright I asked my question, I'm sure I rambled a bit. But I'm tired and going to crawl under many many blankets and sleep.

 

[Drew Sailbum]

I'm not a doctor, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

That lovely lobster red color is blood surging back to your hands as you rewarm. I'm sure you know that hypothermia is often first noticed in the extremities. Since you were in a dry suit, I'm guessing that your body core stayed reasonably warm, but that cold :cold: water hitting the hands caused a reflex diverting blood away. I am guessing that may also contribute to the not feeling the cold.

By the time you realize you are too cold, often hypothermia has hit hard. I once spent a long afternoon as the line tender for an ice dive for my dive club in Wisconsin. There was a light freezing mist at times, and at the end I reached to grab a bit of ice I felt stuck to my hair at the edge of my headband. Wasn't ice, it was my ear. Frostnip, and it hurt for a few days as it healed.

Lesson learned. I'd recommend checking to see if other gloves might provide a better fit, and might limit water exchange. Best cold water "gloves" I've used are mittens with slots for the thumb, index finger, and a single slot for the rest of the fingers.

 

[Lost Yooper]

I'm not a doctor, but I know cold water diving. First, I suspect your gloves were inadequate -- probably allowing too much water exchange. Your core temperature shouldn't have gotten cold unless you were wearing inadequate insulation, poor layering, or your suit leaked. Lastly, but less likely, you have poor circulation to your hands (either physiologically or by the wrist seals). Yet another possibility, maybe the outside temp was very cold? Most of your cold may have been from getting undressed if it was cold outside.

IMO, 42F water isn't particulary cold. I can stay in 42F water for a long time (at least 75mins) without a problem in my drysuit, 200G underwear, polypro underwear, and using 5mm gloves. A lot of people use 7mm mitts rather than gloves, which are a lot warmer. I don't like them, but they are VERY warm (almost hot sometimes). For ice water, I slip in a few heat packs throughout my underwear.

The open water students up here suffer like you did in late fall and spring classes. They'll spend 40mins or so between two dives in 40F water (36F in the Spring) in poorly fitting wetsuits, mitts, and hoods. The water isn't particulary clear and there's nothing really to see. I find it quite amusing actually, but it's quite torturous for the new students. The funny thing is they come out just frozen, but they're smiling the whole time. Been there done that -- paid my dues -- ain't happenin' again!

I would suggest getting better gloves or mitts (dry gloves can be an option too), and using heat packs throughout your underwear. Also, take a cooler of hot water and poor some in your gloves and hood just prior to getting in the water -- makes a HUGE difference. You can even wear thin wool gloves under your neoprene gloves too. Do not wear cotten products next to you skin -- polypropelene works OK. Wear good quality 200g or even 400g (if you have to) drysuit underwear. There's a lot of tricks to keeping warm in cold water, but I suspect your gloves do not fit or are allowing too much water exchange. Your wrist seals shouldn't cut off circulation either, so check that too.

Good luck.

Mike

PS. If you can dive in super cold water with all the junk (thick hood, suit, gloves/mitts, etc), then you can go anywhere in the world with ease.

 

[ScubaJorgen]

Yo Kaffphine

This sounds pretty serious

My experiences

Note: please don't take my experience as reference!! Getting out of the water as soon as you get cold is probabely the best thing to do in general.

I am used to cold-water :cold: diving. Water temperature during my dives range down to 42 degrees fahrenheit/5 degrees celcius. I dive in wetsuit whole year because I do not have a dry suit (so far).

I get prety cold during the dive and start to shiver. As long as I am able to stop the shivering if I want to, all is fine to me. This means for me 30 minutes dive time at 42 degrees. I've had a buddy that shook out all the coffee out of his cup after a dive. That's not right. He's maried now and doesn't dive in winter anymore

Hands and feet are the biggest problem. In my case (part of) my hands and feet become numb and turn white. I have a buddy whose hands turn dark blue like he'd been dead and in the water for two weeks. He has some circulatory problems perhaps. The numbness is a pain-in-the-a** during taking off the diving gear and getting dressed. My hands get normal again as soon as I am in the car heading for home. My feet stay white and numb for quite a while (up to a few hours). A hot shower enhances the process, but awfull tingling is the result. I usually leave them in my shoes and let them warm up slowly.

The lack of concentration does not sound familiar to me . It is known that cold may affect ones thinking. I once heard a story about bikers who were almost asleep on their bike during cold. However, I never experienced it that much. Perhaps you worried to much and got yourself in a bad state of mind???

Some explanation
Usually the body decreases the bloodflow through the limbs when the body is getting cold. In this way the heat transfer to the environment is reduced, while keeping the core temperature of the body high. The limbs get white and numb due to absence of blood. If this proceeds to long, the body switches on the blood flow through the limbs again. Otherwise they may die.


Some Tips

Aren't your seals to tight? Tight seals prevent bloodflow. Neck seal included!

You can use other gloves. There are dry-gloves as well. Or Drew's mittens. (I did not test either of them). One of my buddy uses those tight, double sealed gloves. It is a great enhancement to him.

Stay shallow. Insulation of the suit is better at shallow depth (for wet suits. I'am not sure about dry-suits)


Bye

Jorgen

 

[ScubaScott]

Kaffphine - thats doesn't sound like a very enjoyable coldwater diving experience, but its one you'll never forget eh?
As LY and Jorgen pointed out, they could be a bunch of things that can be fixed or altered to make you more comfy, some are simple, some are not.
I'm still diving in a wetsuit (not by choice either), with about 20 dives in the 40-45 deg range. I use 7mm gloves, but many people prefer "lobster claw gloves". I find that they are a lot warmer than 5 finger gloves, but your even more limited in using your hands (and 7mm gloves are bad enough!). I just re-read LY and Jorgens response and realized I don't have much else to offer - they both summed it up pretty good. I hope this experience doesn't keep you from jumping back in when the water goes below 50 degs. Here, we dive cold or we don't dive at all!! Hope your next dive goes better for you

 

[Ber Rabbit]

I'm with Lost Yooper, get some mittens at least. I switched from gloves to mittens and the difference amazed me. They are challenging at first but once you get used to them you have no problem managing your gear.

When I was a kid I was told that if you put your shoes on while your feet are cold, they stay cold. I have always found that to be true and have moved the philosophy into my diving. I make sure my hands and feet are warm before putting on my booties and mittens. When I can't dress inside I wear my "land" gloves or mittens to keep my hands warm while I get my gear ready then take them off when I'm ready to put the wetsuit mittens on. Makes a difference for me, might work for you.

A quote from my NAUI "Scuba Rescue Skills and Techniques":

Hypothermia is a life-threatening condition that results from a progressive decrease in core temperature. It is characterized by severe, uncontrollable shivering, decreasing dexterity and coordination, increasingly muddled thinking, unresponsiveness, and unconsciousness. Early onset phases of hypothermia begin with a core temperature drop of as little as 1 or 2 degrees F! Because hypothermic divers cannot control their movements and cannot think rationally they are in grave danger underwater.

Chilling is the first stage of the process that culminates in hypothermia, a life-threatening loss of body heat. Characterized by a feeling of uncomfortable cold, it can strike any person after even moderate exposure to cold water and can occur despite wearing exposure protection. Signs of chilling include blue lips and mild shivering. These are difficult to observe underwater, so divers are urged to monitor their comfort level throughout all dives. Chilling is a cumulative condition, persisting between dives and recurring with greater intensity much more quickly on repetitive dives. Although you may feel rewarmed during surface intervals, particularly if you are sunbathing or in a well-heated area, it takes a relatively long time, sometimes up to a full day or more, to regain lost internal heat. Just how long will depend on the diver's unique physiology, including sex, body composition, age, and general health."

When I get really cold I have the same problem with thinking clearly. One time while on a land cave excursion with one of my college professors and some classmates I was so cold from being wet (the cave has a river in it that you must walk in the whole way and a deep pool you have to cross--I didn't make it and went into the water to my neck) in February. By the end of the day I had to literally talk to my legs to make them move, I couldn't feel anything and still had a mile to walk in the water. After a while I quit shivering, bad thing, and couldn't think straight at all. Luckily by then we were nearly out of the cave and near my truck. Needless to say I stripped to the skin right there by the state highway so I could dry off and get into dry clothes. My instructor was so shocked he just said "Should I be selling tickets to this?" I too had a hard time driving the 5 HOURS home from KY.

If I were you I'd shorten my dive times to 20-25 minutes and work from there to see where your tolerance is and what equipment or procedure modifications you can make to stay warmer longer.

Glad to hear you intend to continue with the cold water diving!
Ber

 

[Aquamore]

Hi Kaffine

I would agree with the very good tips above for 'Cold water diving' and 'Diving under ice'.

A couple of futher tips:
If your glover are the problem and you don't want to wear mittens then, just before you get in the water, pour warm water from a thermos flask into your gloves and this will reduce the initial ingress of cold water and help limit 'Hydrocution' (cold water shock). You can even soak your hood in warm water too if you find it comforting.

If your seals are too tight you can stretch them after you have washed your suit by insetting cans inside the cuffs (even the kneck too if you have a can handy big enough), and store the suit this way (the cans are stretching the new seals for you). A Fellow SADS (military Sub-Aqua Diving Supervisor), has used a ladies hair drier on the 'Can Stretched' seals but I am not sure if this actually speeds up the process of not.

Try and get a windproof over your suit as soon as you leave the water to help reduce wind chill.

I know of at least one diver who puts pre-warmed chemical Jel-pack inside her dry-suit for ice-diving (after she has put on her weight belt so that they sit nicely in the small of her back) and she limits her dive time according to the water Temp.

You can also set your limits for the dive based purely on time, instead of Air consumption (and come up together if you feel cold of course). That way you don't overdo the dive duration

Another thing you might like to consider is, you were shifting a lot of air in and out of the dry-suit getting your bouyancy control adjusted. Well this might be another factor why you were so cold.... think of it you put air into your suit, your body warms it up... then you dump it out as you ascend. There is a limited number of times you can do this without drawing you body heat away.

My other tip would be to get your bouyancy adjustments and weighting sorted out in the swimming pool and when you are totally happy test bouyancy at various depth progressing deeper each time. I personally don't use my suit for bouyancy control I only put a little air in to eliminate 'Suit-Squeeze' then I use my Bouyancy device (jacket, wings, whatever) to make the real bouyancy adjustments.

I hope these few tips help,

"May your bubbles flow forever upwards".
Aquamore

 

[Rick Murchison]

Whew!
I *knew* I was wise to stay South!
Scared me to death and I wasn't even there.
Rick (limit 60 degrees even in a dry suit.. well, occasionally 50 but only for a short time and for a *really* good reason)

 

[Uncle Pug]

Is that you were red faced too....

And I agree with the others who pointed out that your seals were probably waaay too tight....

Stretching them over cans or bottles is good but nix on the hair dryer.... Neck seal over an AL80 is good for a few hours....

Then after the stretching exercise carefully cut one ring at a time off latex seals and try the fit... (if your seals are neoprene someone else will have to advise you.)

What type of undergarment were you using... you were using an undergarment weren't you????

Tips for comfort in cold water:
1. no cotton anywhere...
2. dry-gloves keep your feet warm...
3. argon can be used to pre-purge your suit...

This last one is not that expensive and doesn't require you to have an argon suit inflation along on the dive. It really is a joke that people take argon on the dive and add a few little squirts to a suit that contains mostly air.... does no good at all! But if you get a small bottle (120cf) of Argon from a welding supply house and put a cheap regulator on it with a LP inflator hose you can pre-purge your suit with argon before the dive. The little squirts of air that you add during the dive will not hurt the argon

For those of you who think this is too much expense and trouble...
Just think about what you have already spent and the trouble you go to just to dive cold water.... add a little more $ and very little trouble and you can do it much more comfortably!

 

[rcohn]

I find that cold hands are the limiting factor on dives below 45 degrees F. I can layer enough polartec under the drysuit to keep my body warm far longer than my hands. Cold feet are a problem as well, but not nearly as dangerous as the loss of dexterity in the hands. Currently I use dry gloves with small chemical heat packs inside. This keeps my hands warm enough for 35 to 45 minutes. If you have small hands you night not have room for the heat packs, they are somewhat bulky.

Some friends swear by using Atlan mitts with the donut seal soaked in hot water before the dive. You bring a cooler of hot water and leave the gloves in it until just before the dive. They claim this is warmer than dry gloves. Don't just pour hot water into the gloves, soak them so that they're fully warmed up.

One other thing I do is avoid starting a dive with cold hands. It's easy to chill your hands before the dive starts, while setting up gear. I find a dip in the cooler of hot water warms them up quickly.

Please note that many of us have trouble keeping hands warm in cold water, your experience is not unusual. One friend (diving solo) had to crawl to her car in full gear and get assistance from a passerby because her hands were too cold to remove her fins or use the car key. End the dive while you still have sufficient manual dexteriety.

Ralph