Standardized Prices?

[ucfdiver]

But in general they are more expensive than equivalent courses. (Not comparing PADI OW with GUE courses).

What are you considering equivalent?

 

[PfcAJ]

If you think it's high pay, I wonder why so few instructors are full time.

Well that's an easy one. Its too expensive. You can't have a steady stream of students at those prices unless you're a big name/ high demand instructor.

Unfortunately, the high prices (especially for the entry level course) turn people off who are otherwise interested. I think that's the biggest shame of all. I'd love to be able to refer more people to Fundamentals because I think its a great class, but people see a super high price tag for a scuba class and turn tail and run.

The thing is that its not JUST the course fee. Its instructor travel, dive site admittance fees, food, lodging, and the often overlooked time off work. All these things combined make the true cost of the course exorbitant for what's truly an entry level class that doesn't really "get" you anything new (yeah yeah skills entry into other gue classes, I know). Compare that to a cavern class. Less days, lower fees, and you're "certified" to go do a new thing at the end of it. That's enticing, especially for someone on a limited budget.

 

[nadwidny]

Which would be a breach not only of GUE standards but also UK Health and Safety legislation. Anything more than three people in the real world and I have another instructor with me. Who also expects to be paid.

You are correct. I was basing it on when I was last involved in a fundies course when 2 instructors did something like 12 students apiece, 6 at a time. Fundies then and fundies now are different. Still $600/day is nothing to sneeze at.

Even if it was $1200 per day, that's still less than my day job, which doesn't require me to requalify every year, or be responsible for people's safety.

Let's not over dramatize what you do. Bus drivers also have to requalify every year and are responsible for people's safety and they are not making anywhere near $600/day.
Is it so hard to just man up and say "Yes I charge a lot but the course is worth it and so am I."

 

[kafkaland]

I found this a very interesting discussion, as I'm currently thinking about which additional training to pursue. Price is just one small component for me - it's the overall balance of what I get out of it vs. what I have to put in. In terms of what I put in, I look at the time I have to put in and could use otherwise, the hassle of travel, potential unpleasant aspects of the course like having to stoop all day for dry line drills, and of course the monetary cost (course fee, travel, lodging, etc.). On the plus side, I look at both instant gratification like new skills that I can use right now, the fun the course promises to be, certification for more depth or a new gas mix and with it access to dives I want to do; and long-term benefits like fulfilling a prereq for a course that I think I want to take later, and overall enhanced diving skills that will make my path in the long run smoother.

So far I have taken PADI OW (the ticket to play), AOW (required for many interesting dives, plus useful skills), Nitrox (useful mix), and drysuit (makes local diving more pleasant). Those have all been no-brainers in my cost-benefit analysis. And so is Rescue, which I will take as soon as we can get a fun group together. Otherwise, I imagine it can get a bit of a drudgery, and getting that cert isn't so pressing as it can't wait until it's right. Beyond that, I'm unsure. I would like to do more Great Lakes wreck diving, and eventually take the Adv. Nitrox / Deco courses. But that's still a bit off, and I want to get plenty more diving and likely another course or two in before that.

I have looked at GUE Fundies,and so far it doesn't seem like a good overall value in the cost-benefit analysis for me (note: for me - this may be different for someone else). In brief, the gain (better buoyancy and finning skills, access to higher GUE course) does not give me enough immediate benefit (my diving doesn't seem to be limited by these factors now) to justify the substantial investment in time, money, hassle (no GUE instructor nearby), and perceived unpleasantness (martinet instructors ready to smack you with the proverbial ruler whenever your trim doesn't look fabulous).

So right now I'm thinking more along the lines of doubles and sidemount courses (PSAI seems to have an attractive curriculum for those). This would give me exciting new skills, something I could not easily just pick up by diving with my buddies, and guidance for which direction to go once my diving gets more technical. In particular if I can find an instructor who teaches these things within driving distance from me. And in that balance, course fees become, within some reason, secondary.

 

[mathauck0814]

I found this a very interesting discussion, as I'm currently thinking about which additional training to pursue. Price is just one small component for me - it's the overall balance of what I get out of it vs. what I have to put in. In terms of what I put in, I look at the time I have to put in and could use otherwise, the hassle of travel, potential unpleasant aspects of the course like having to stoop all day for dry line drills, and of course the monetary cost (course fee, travel, lodging, etc.). On the plus side, I look at both instant gratification like new skills that I can use right now, the fun the course promises to be, certification for more depth or a new gas mix and with it access to dives I want to do; and long-term benefits like fulfilling a prereq for a course that I think I want to take later, and overall enhanced diving skills that will make my path in the long run smoother.

So far I have taken PADI OW (the ticket to play), AOW (required for many interesting dives, plus useful skills), Nitrox (useful mix), and drysuit (makes local diving more pleasant). Those have all been no-brainers in my cost-benefit analysis. And so is Rescue, which I will take as soon as we can get a fun group together. Otherwise, I imagine it can get a bit of a drudgery, and getting that cert isn't so pressing as it can't wait until it's right. Beyond that, I'm unsure. I would like to do more Great Lakes wreck diving, and eventually take the Adv. Nitrox / Deco courses. But that's still a bit off, and I want to get plenty more diving and likely another course or two in before that.

I have looked at GUE Fundies,and so far it doesn't seem like a good overall value in the cost-benefit analysis for me (note: for me - this may be different for someone else). In brief, the gain (better buoyancy and finning skills, access to higher GUE course) does not give me enough immediate benefit (my diving doesn't seem to be limited by these factors now) to justify the substantial investment in time, money, hassle (no GUE instructor nearby), and perceived unpleasantness (martinet instructors ready to smack you with the proverbial ruler whenever your trim doesn't look fabulous).

So right now I'm thinking more along the lines of doubles and sidemount courses (PSAI seems to have an attractive curriculum for those). This would give me exciting new skills, something I could not easily just pick up by diving with my buddies, and guidance for which direction to go once my diving gets more technical. In particular if I can find an instructor who teaches these things within driving distance from me. And in that balance, course fees become, within some reason, secondary.

There's something very real in here. Most divers pay what most dive shops charge for a "license" to participate. The permission slip is really all they're after. Beyond that, they see most courses through the lens of instant gratification. Add enough experience and they begin to believe themselves to be great divers. Why take an advanced course like fundies with its elevated expectations of performance and increased scrutiny and expense? "It's not fun and besides, I am already a damn good diver."

The market is small for high end dive training because the number of divers who truly dive at the high end of performance and/or complexity is very small.

To the OP, be unapologetic about your pricing. I don't feel the need to justify my rate (nor do I feel the need to publish it). I tell people who inquire about training what my time is worth and then it's up to them to decide whether that's compatible with their needs. At the end of the day, they're the ones who want to improve.

Unless you're a renowned name in the industry, potential students come from local diving circles or by word of mouth. All you can do is be the kind of diver that people want to emulate, do the kind of dives that others want to do and when you do work with students give them the kind of experience that they're inclined to sing about to others. Then you can charge whatever you'd like when someone approaches you to coach them through whatever is next.

 

[bradells]

It seems like people are associating training like they do with buying merchandise.

I took Fundies recently, and never balked at the price. I knew what the course entailed before going in, and what I was getting out of it.

I didn't learn as much about diving that I didn't already know, but more importantly I learned about MY diving, and our TEAMs diving.

It has been my most expensive course to date, but it was just as expensive as doing a privately taught specialty PADI course (actually a little cheaper before factoring in Gas costs).

I never shop training like I do with product, as with products, it's the same whether you buy some thing from Joe rather than Steve.

Will my next course be with GUE? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe I'll go to TDI and get my HOG reg servicing course, so I don't have to shell over as much $$ every time I acquire used regs, or get them retuned or serviced.

Will I take another GUE course? Most definitely! (When time, $$, and need allows)


BRad

 

[LiteHedded]

There's something very real in here. Most divers pay what most dive shops charge for a "license" to participate. The permission slip is really all they're after. Beyond that, they see most courses through the lens of instant gratification. Add enough experience and they begin to believe themselves to be great divers. Why take an advanced course like fundies with its elevated expectations of performance and increased scrutiny and expense? "It's not fun and besides, I am already a damn good diver."

The market is small for high end dive training because the number of divers who truly dive at the high end of performance and/or complexity is very small.

To the OP, be unapologetic about your pricing. I don't feel the need to justify my rate (nor do I feel the need to publish it). I tell people who inquire about training what my time is worth and then it's up to them to decide whether that's compatible with their needs. At the end of the day, they're the ones who want to improve.

Unless you're a renowned name in the industry, potential students come from local diving circles or by word of mouth. All you can do is be the kind of diver that people want to emulate, do the kind of dives that others want to do and when you do work with students give them the kind of experience that they're inclined to sing about to others. Then you can charge whatever you'd like when someone approaches you to coach them through whatever is next.

wut?
fundies, by definition, is not an advanced course.

 

[mathauck0814]

wut?
fundies, by definition, is not an advanced course.

Compared to anything you're likely to buy at your LDS it sure is.

 

[TSandM]

The discussion of GUE prices is one I've had with a number of people over the years.

There IS variation in prices, particularly for Fundamentals, and it IS worth talking to different instructors. Fundies, I think, is generally well-priced, perhaps at the high end of what other classes in an area go for, but not astronomically different for the number of days and the amount of time, and the instruction is almost always as good as anything else you could possibly find to do.

The technical classes are a little different, because there the price difference is enormous. To do Cave 1 and Cave 2 in Florida or in MX, you will pay anywhere between two and three TIMES as much as you would pay at the going rate for other instruction in the same regions. Although I am a big GUE fan, I have to admit that it's difficult to put my finger on precisely what it is about those classes that is worth that premium. On the other hand, I don't know of any GUE technical instructors who are begging for work (and the ZG guys are running their tails off) so people are willing to pay those prices, and if they are, why shouldn't these good instructors charge them? Maybe it isn't that GUE classes are too costly, but that other good technical instruction is underpriced?

I have, in my riding career, paid as much as $250 an hour for instruction, which is far more than the cost per hour of any GUE class. The difference is that I rode for perhaps three or four hours in the course of a clinic, so I didn't have to dig into my billfold and come up with 3K all at once (and the total cost of a cave class in MX, for example, will be higher than that, when you figure in airfare, lodging and meals). My C2 in Florida cost me, if I remember correctly, in the neighborhood of $4500 altogether. That sum will almost cover costs for me and my husband to do TWO cave diving trips to MX. That's a lot of money for a class, but then again, a lot of folks drop ridiculous sums on hobbies. We once calculated that the four technical divers dropping into the water off our boat EACH had on or with them more money in gear than the boat cost . . .

I wish the classes were not so expensive, because it would be so much easier to convince people to go with this agency, rather than another (and it would be easier to talk my husband into letting me consider more training ). But sometimes people value more what they have to pay dearly for -- and good instructors ought to be compensated well for the time and effort they put into getting good, and the time and effort they put into teaching well.

 

[mainedvr]

This is a very interesting topic, my wife and I (we have four young children so we understand the dollar and cents of things) are taking fundies in less than a month. And while we talk about it often we realize that what it is costing for the course we could take a trip and dive 30 or so times for the cost, we feel that with the amount of time that is going to be spent with the instructor and the lessons learned it is well worth it. I know when we took our OW they said it was one price but by the time we were done and bought the required gear it was definitely twice what they said, and while the instructor was great it definitely was just a starting point.

I once spent 1500 bucks on a custom made bamboo fly rod .