Standardized Prices?

[Gareth]

I don't own a lot of halcyon gear tbh, and I even have some brass dog clips. I've got scuba pro regs, an apeks wing, a frog wing, an agir brokk backplate, a dir zone knife, ammonite torches. the list goes on. I've got some halcyon stuff too because it's bulletproof and does the job. It's funny what you are "allowed" to use when you base your decisions on what GUE actually have in the standards rather than what people assume is in the standards, or would like to think is in the standards because it would prove a point.

Neither the word "brass" or the word "steel" is used in the standards. For that matter neither is the word "halcyon". I keep reading on the internet that specific brands are required but god knows when you are told that, because I'm an instructor trainer and I teach people to use whatever brand of gear they want as long as it does the job.

Please do not confuse what people or teams choose to use with what the GUE standards require. Function is everything, brand is irrelevant.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[TSandM]

Thank you, Gareth!

 

[charlier]

I had a very interesting discussion with Jarrod Jablonski when he was out here a year ago. I told him I was probably going to end up being a PADI instructor, and he asked me why I would do that instead of going with GUE. And I told him that I really didn't think it was worth it to go through the GUE instructor development process, only to learn to teach a class that no one takes. (I could not be a Fundies instructor, just OW, because I haven't taken and don't intend to take Tech 1.). But I could take everything I've learned from them and pass on as much of it as I can to my students, as I have seen my husband do over the last five years.

Good idea. As a PADI (or whatever agency) instructor, you will reach more divers, train your students to a higher level, and provide your students with an spatial awareness that is not typically developed in novice divers.

I agree that Fundies is expensive, but honestly, it's not more expensive than two or three PADI specialties, and people do those all the time. If they put their funds together and went ahead and sprang for the more expensive class, they'd get better training and come out closer to where they want to be in the end. I can't convince people of that.

Clearly I live in my own bubble. Other than AOW and Nitrox, I rarely encounter divers that take other PADI specialties. I stand corrected.

Similar to steep skiing or intro to back country two day workshops, a PADI instructor with GUE background might offer PADI AOW within the PADI curriculum as a two day+ intensive workshop that stresses buoyancy and trim (more than satisfies PADI Peak Performance Buoyancy), navigation (task loading), propulsion methods (including hovering and deploying an SMB) and diving to 30 m with an emphasis on gas management and the team approach (satisfies the PADI Deep Diver). Here, you can take everything that you learned from GUE and pass on to a large group of recreational divers. My analogy with skiing - a PSIA ski instructor with a strong ski racing background usually provides a much better instruction than a typical PSIA instructor without such level of technical skiing.

 

[DaleC]

Lot's of discussion.

I think I need to define what I'm doing here. I'm not knocking GUE/UTD instruction in any way. I think it is a high quality product. I'm just explaining what I (and I assume some others) encountered when contemplating this pathway. Part of the problem was that it was very restrictive in regards to a lot of the diving I did. In that way I knew I would either have to abandon those pursuits (if I were to dive according to the core concepts) or drop that part of the regime and take what I could get in a skills/knowledge sense. That is a barrier.

A lot of people may want quality instruction but don't want the philosophy that goes along with it so they struggle with how much training costs vs how much they are going to throw out the window afterwards. This is amplified at the rec level, where the perception is that you don't really need that philosophy anyway. If you are truly interested in tech diving the philosophy makes more sense and seems worth the investment.

Few people hear about DIR before becoming certified (and buying their mainstream gear) so there is a retroactive cost to going DIR. Otherwise you would need to catch non divers at the pre OW level. How do you do that with a more costly program that is designed to take a diver from 0 to full cave when most people really just start diving because they want to look at the pretty fish.

I sort of see this as private education vs public (something we are dealing with as we have a teachers strike going on at the moment). Those people who choose private look at the public system and see low standards and feel quality education is worth paying more for. They invest in that. After investing in that ideology it's pretty hard to admit that people in the public system can get as good an education, and be as successful, than the path they have chosen and paid more for. To me it really isn't about the system as much as it's about the student/family. What happens in the private system though, is a propensity for more motivated families to accumulate, so it seems the system produces a superior product. The down side is that by accumulating in the private system, those families are not dispersed in the public system to help raise the bar there. They would still exist, but they would be more unnoticed, because the public system is far larger and contains both low and high performers.

As has been alluded to here. Those who will probably effect the most change at the rec level will not be the ones who remain strictly DIR oriented (they will only effect that small population) but rather those who take the good points of the system and scale it accordingly (along with the price) to make it workable and on par with mainstream instruction.

And hey, it's not like I wouldn't ever wear the "H"

 

[lucca brassi]

How it is with instructors schedule ? For America, I do not know, but for our instructor (grade quality) we waited 2 years (from Germany) for course in Piran.

During a conversation at dinner , I also heard that there is a considerable difference (occupancy rates) between instructors from central Europe (Italy , Germany ) and eastern European countries due to

quality of curse (for England I don't know ).

 

[Taliena]

Why always fundamentals from gue? It is not bad, but it is not better than other courses. Of course you have a difference in instructors, but if the instructor is not a person you fits your character, then you will never learn a lot, not with gue, not with iantd and not with tdi or even padi. I have done all courses from tdi and iantd and that was really good, and costet less. I don't want to startover again. And I know I will get a tech rating on fundies if I would do that course. So no, for me no need and a waiste of money. When I did the art course, I was thinking about a fundies class, but decided not to do. I had only to do normoxic and full trimix and that would cost me around 1500. So why spend then first a 700 to do fundies (only to show you can get a techrating), and then 1200 for tech1 (which is almost same as art), and then tech2 for 2000 and you go only to 75m, where you go with a good instructor on your full trimix course from another organisation go to 85-100m. So I decided to follow the iantd way. And I loved it. And I can still dive DIR, but I can use non-standardgases as well. A gue fundies will cost here 700, that are only 8 dives of about 40-45 minutes. Not cheap per hour as well (theory and equipment setup is for me bull**** as I have all DIR-standarized already, so I get only 8 dives for that 700 euro, so too much per hour for what you get in my eyes).

You cannot compare the prices of diving to a private hour with horseriding. I do horseriding too and then you pay a lot for a really good instructor for a private lesson. BUT: you only take a lesson if needed. And in diving you have to take a whole course to show that you can dive on that level. In riding you can do competitions without any lessons taken and the points you get from the judges can make you to go a level higher. No instructor needed. The autodidact can do all without lessons or just a few lessons needed. In diving the autodidact does not fit. I know there a rule in GUE where you can proof that there is no need to do a specific course. But if you contact an instructor to show that you have that level, then they don't react, always busy. I have done a lot of dives over tech2 level (75m to 112m) and have done even more dives on eCCR on and over the mod3/full trimix level, and have done a lot overhead as well, so why would I do any DIR course? I decided to spent my money on getting more experience in such dives. And yes, I am really precise in what I am doing. I try to improve always, use pictures and movies etc. to improve myself.
So yes, I like DIR on oc, but for really experienced divers there is no need to start over again. You can do DIR without a course. It is not a secret feature or something special. It is a way of diving, and it fits your or not. And for me it fits not always. If you are less experienced, then maybe a fundies course can be nice. It is not bad, and if the instructor is a nice person then you can learn a lot. But you have UTD too and the Essentials from IANTD.

Oh, brass double enders work really well. I have some and decided to use them till I had to replace for stainless steel. And even after more than 500 dives, the brass ones still work, haha. Oh and my Halcyon backplate is on my ccr. The halcyon webbing and a selfmade backplate is on my oc equipment. I have a halcyon wing of 40lbs, nice in caves or up to 2 stages, but too small if you dive in currents with 4 stages. For that dives I have a horseshoe wing of 60lbs from DIR-zone which I use with a steel twin12. Regs are from Aqualung (stageregs, now not DIR anymore, because I made an inflator hose on it for my CCR, but it works nice as well on oc) , Scubapro and Apeks. My hoses for the stageregs are maybe non dir (but GUE does not write all must be black), I have green hoses, yellow, pink, red, purple. And I like the yellow 'octopus' regs. So I use them instead of black ones. Regs are the same but a better colour.
yes, I do stagerotations, use a leash when carrying more than 2 stages. BUT: in cold waters with 3 fingergloves (I don't like drygloves), then sometimes I carry stages left-right, so non-dir because that is easier.

 

[hongrace]

Is tech diving just about achieving depths??

 

[rivers]

that are only 8 dives of about 40-45 minutes. Not cheap per hour as well (theory and equipment setup is for me bull**** as I have all DIR-standarized already, so I get only 8 dives for that 700 euro, so too much per hour for what you get in my eyes).

I can assure you during fundies (and rec 3, and i'm guessing the tech and cave classes as well), I spent far more than 40-45 minutes in the water per dive.

 

[ucfdiver]

Why always fundamentals from gue? It is not bad, but it is not better than other courses.

I keep hearing this, but I've yet to seen anyone provide proof that it's true.

No other agency outside of GUE can offer a fundies class where you can recommend it and not have to specify a specific instructor. Sure-- individual instructors can teach a course on par with fundies, but from what I've seen those instructors typically charge the same amount as fundies instructors anyways.

 

[Taliena]

I have friends that spend only 40-45 minutes in the water. then no refill between dives needed.