tangential issues from a mishap thread

[openmindOW]

I can show your dozens of threads where the diver was found dead with weights on. Ditching is taught but too often forgotten in the time of need.

I emphasize weight ditching in my classes. One thing worries me: Weight belts can shift, particularly if a diver is wearing a thick wetsuit.

 

[openmindOW]

I'd be having some hard looks at who trained these divers, were I related to the victim.

Are you suggesting litigation?

 

[ScubaSteve]

Are you suggesting litigation?

- We have little to no information as fact.
- Nobody here was involved in any way.

Why would we not suggest we sue the instructors for this? Makes sense for how these threads progress.

 

[ScubaSteve]

......Myself and most of my dive buddy's don't come to your cute little events anymore.......

If only we were so lucky.

.......they feed of off gossip and rumors and thats all i was trying to stop......

You tried to stop rumors by spreading more rumors? Good plan.

 

[boulderjohn]

"Since this apparently represents your ability to understand the concept, I will sincerely apologize for asking too much of you and leave it at that."

So what you're saying is you didn't call and talk to the person in charge of all this stuff at padi???

No, I instead read what he wrote in the last Undersea Journal. Are you saying that if I called him he would tell me that everything he wrote in that article was a lie, and he only gives the true information out to people who call him personally?

"2007: 5 total deaths during training. One was due to a cardiac problem (that means heart problem, BTW). In another there was no identification of a cause in the report."

O good you talked to the police and established it wasn't a medical condition good i was worried about that

Wow. That makes a lot of sense.

I have no idea where he got that number from, but it's absolutely impossible to validate, regardless of whether it came from PADI or DAN or anywhere else.

While it's possible to have some idea of the number of SCUBA related fatalities in any given year, it is not possible to know how many dives were done during any particular period, which makes the percentage unknowable.

That's exactly what the PADI article said.

Its from dan????? They do a group study if you look into your dan report, that you read from front to back, it tells you in the first 2 chapters where they get all there statistics from including this one. its prolly higher then 1per 200 000 cause thats just the reports they can compile

As I have said about 5 times so far, it is not in DAN anywhere that I can find. If you say it is there, it is up to you to show where it is.

Training deaths? The only acceptable number is zero!

My nephew's mother in law died in an AOW course from a massive heart attack at depth. I don't blame the instructor for that. In the 2008 DAN fatality report, 3 of the 4 training-related deaths were due to cardiac events. I don't see how it can be possible to hit zero unless we can find a way to ensure that students stop having heart attacks.

 

[markmantei]

My nephew's mother in law died in an AOW course from a massive heart attack at depth. I don't blame the instructor for that. In the 2008 DAN fatality report, 3 of the 4 training-related deaths were due to cardiac events. I don't see how it can be possible to hit zero unless we can find a way to ensure that students stop having heart attacks.

John, if the only on-course fatalaties were medical in nature, I would certainly be happy. That said Thalassamania commented in another thread about a daily asprin regimine. Maybe cardiac risk factors need to play a bigger role in the medical questionnaire and in the course info. Not saying its the case, but if divers are routinely dying from heart attacks, cardiac health needs to be stressed more. This is after all, a sport, and as such will stress our bodies.

 

[markmantei]

CWC, i don't think the dive shop only does AOW. Are you suggesting that they don't offer any OW training? No specialties? I did hear it was an advanced class, but that's only rumor.

 

[elan]

Darn, some glitch just erased what I started with...

Retry: Elan, after reading that AOW students go on these wrecks and they die, I read back through the Ontario Underwater Council incident reports back to 2000 and find no mention of these kind of deaths.

Ontario Underwater Council

The charter operator I use will not take OW divers out onto these two wrecks, and even with AOW they want you to work up to these wrecks with shallower dives if you have not done this kind of cold water diving before.

Finally, the Forest City lies on a slope, it ran into Bears Rump Island and sank, what's left of the midships begins in 60 ft, the mooring block for boats is in 70 ft, while the stern is in 150. I read your post as sounding like folks are jumping straight into 150 ft of water with an Alu 80. You could dive this wreck and stay above 80 ft easily.

I don't see or hear of AOW classes on either of these wrecks, so who's taking them out there?

You are absolutely correct in the placement of the wreck. But there is not much to look at at the bow which lays on the shallower part and they all go to the stern as there is much more stuff to see there. And the deck in the stern area if I remember correctly is 120 ? And then the bottom at the stern is around 150.

Well they do dive the stern on AL80 It happened a couple of weeks ago. While generally the charters are anal about certification the shops still can and they do take divers there. I guess the charters allow them to do that as the instructor is on the boat.

Myself I was never asked to display my proficiency on shallower dives.

There was a mesh-up on that wreck few weeks ago when a diver in AOW training had issues and bolted from the wreck. Thanks God it was OK.

For obvious reasons I'm not going to disclose the names of people wrecks or shops.

You probably dive with competent buddies and you never see it. I sometimes dive with the shops as I like the people , they are fun on the surface. But I tend to dive with my buddies underwater.

I saw quite some AOW training for out of the OW class people done on those wrecks as well as the ones in St Lawrence. The whole group sinking on the Rock port wall in the down current and instructor literally pulling them up one by one, going into an overhead on Daryaw on AL 80 at 90 ft, the list goes on.

 

[coldwatercanada]

Ok dan did a study thats the number they come up with, They got a group of shops/dms/instructors/boat captains and such to record the number of dives done by themselves and students, how accurate is the number?? I don't know but I didn't just make it up. Thats the statistic I've been getting told for the last 5 years and its on two of dans promotional pages. Which I linked. . .

And no the padi state was for padi training dives. Not dives over all

"My nephew's mother in law died in an AOW course from a massive heart attack at depth. I don't blame the instructor for that. In the 2008 DAN fatality report, 3 of the 4 training-related deaths were due to cardiac events. I don't see how it can be possible to hit zero unless we can find a way to ensure that students stop having heart attacks."

We don't know if that was a factor or not? Plus how many students lie on there medicals???

"You tried to stop rumors by spreading more rumors? Good plan."

What rumors did I try and spread other then that the body was recovered at 200 feet in a 160 foot deep lake?????

And Northwest scuba and ocean sports both do 10 hours of in pool training spread over 3 days so I don't know who gives only one day in the pool and who does all the skills only once but its neither of them? when i do my COW most of the skills get shown to me 2-3 times including octo breathing and weight dumping.

"And yes, I have Rescue, and have done multiple scenarios of unresponsive diver rescue in my various technical classes. In doubles. Without problems."

Different then real life. You'll be thinking differently, and you'll react differently, also what if the guy was burred to his knees in silt. And lets say the victim was on there stomach so you cant get to there bcd and you have to roll them underwater????? easier on a live person then dead.

 

[ringmod65]