Tech through PADI or TDI?

[DevonDiver]

Just to note that PADI now have an addendum/modular option for either/or Tec45 and Tec50 which qualified normoxic trimix at that depth.

It's called TMX45 and TMX50.

Its just 1 day/2 dives added to either Tec45 or Tec50

 

[stuartv]

@DevonDiver Good info.

About that max of 20 minutes of deco. Is that a limitation of Tec 45 and Tec 50, also? Or is that only a limitation that is imposed on dives using Helium?

I thought Tec 45 certified the diver for unlimited deco. Thus, I am surprised to see a 20 minute limitation.

 

[Miyaru]

...
The final step is to step up to diving hypoxic mixes and that also makes sense to me. I would definitely not feel comfortable going straight from PADI's Tec 50 to Tec Trimix (using hypoxic mixes). Having the intermediate step of 60 - 65m depth and normoxic trimix seems like a safer set of steps. But, if you do that with PADI, it means 6 steps - each with it's course tuittion - to work through.
.....

That's the same as stating that for PADI Open Water, you need to get PADI Scuba Diver first.

No, it's an intermediate step. Once you've completed part of the OW course, you're eligible for a Scuba Diver card. But you can't skip the first part of the course.
Same with Tec Trimix. Tec65 is just an intermediate step. You can't skip it.
Tec 40/45/50 are three modules in the Tec Deep course. It is in fact one course, with 1 book covering all modules. And yes, you get 3 c-cards.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

My understanding is that UTD is one agency that takes video of all students performing skills in the water and then the student has to be "vetted" by more than one instructors. I think GUE does the same. This way, the passing criteria is not as subjective or dependent upon a single person as it is in TDI or PADI.

I like this idea. All UTD and GUE students that I have come across were at exact same skill level regardless of the agency. In TDI and PADI, I have seen such huge variation in skill that it was hard to believe that everyone was being measured by the same yard stick when c cards were being handed out. One instructors yard stick would be so radically different than the other even though both taught for the same agency.

 

[divezonescuba]

My PADI TEC 40/45/50 instructor was also a GUE instructor.

At the start of the course a TEC 40 certified diver from another instructor joined the class as he had to be vetted to enroll in TEC 45 by the head instructor that was teaching our class. When it started to go south, the diver accused the head instructor of teaching to GUE rather than PADI standards.

I think the diver was confused with rigorously enforced standards to a high level rather than marginally enforced standards to minimal levels which may have been how he finished TEC 40.

So for the even the same set of standards, how the instructor executes them makes the difference.

Another concern is how you get your deeper water dives. Anywhere you have to get on a boat, weather is a concern. In Bonaire, curaçao, and Grand Cayman can you do TEC dives off of the shore where weather is not a concern. TEC dives in lake Travis are a joke.

 

[KevinNM]

I imagine that someone wanting scuba training who reads these forums and hears "it's the instructor" is in the same position..... it's easy to understand and VERY hard to execute.

Once you see any know enough instructors and have idea of what the successful outcome of a class looks like you can start to judge. But without that and from long distance you pretty much have to depend on gut and advice from other people whose competence you probably don’t know. And they might have an unknown to you reason to build them up or tear them down.

Worse a great instructor for someone else might not be a great instructor for you. Learning styles differ, and how people want to be treated varies.

The other thing is that a good instructor should not allow a student who doesn’t “get it” to proceed. So focusing on the fastest way to your objective can lead to you arriving with a card but without the skills to do those dives when something goes wrong and there isn’t a instructor to fix it.

 

[KevinNM]

My understanding is that UTD is one agency that takes video of all students performing skills in the water and then the student has to be "vetted" by more than one instructors. I think GUE does the same.

GUE has the instructor alone determining this, though there are often more than one instructor or intern involved in a class. It appears that the IDC process teaches them a generally accepted method to judge competency. What I have been told by an instructor it amounts to “would I be happy to have this student as a teammate or student in a tech class tomorrow?”

 

[stuartv]

That's the same as stating that for PADI Open Water, you need to get PADI Scuba Diver first.

No, it's an intermediate step. Once you've completed part of the OW course, you're eligible for a Scuba Diver card. But you can't skip the first part of the course.
Same with Tec Trimix. Tec65 is just an intermediate step. You can't skip it.
Tec 40/45/50 are three modules in the Tec Deep course. It is in fact one course, with 1 book covering all modules. And yes, you get 3 c-cards.

According to the PADI page I looked at today, the prerequisite for Tec Trimix is Tec 65 OR Tec 50. So you can go straight from Tec 50 to Tec Trimix. But, the prerequisite for Tec 50 is Tec 45. And the prerequisites for Tec 45 are Tec 40 AND Rescue. I'm not saying the Tec Trimix course doesn't teach you everything that's in Tec 65. I'm just saying you don't have to take Tec 65 as a separate course, ever. You DO have to take Tec 40, 45, and 50, no matter what.

As far as I (as the student/consumer) am/was concerned, the number of books is completely irrelevant. 1 book used for all doesn't make it 1 course. Nor does multiple books for the first TDI course mean it's multiple courses. We used the same textbook for Physics 1 and Physics 2 in college. Does that mean I only took 1 Physics course that year. Other classes had multiple books for one class...

If you could combine Tec 40, 45, and 50 and have a reduced number of checkout dives that covered all 3, as compared to the number required when doing them individually, then and only then might I, as a student/consumer feel like it was actually only 1 course. Also, to consider it as one course, I would need to be able to start it and continue the course on consecutive days until I finished.

If you only have the minimum number of dives required for Tec 40, I believe you actually cannot take them all together. You would have to break between courses to get more dives in somewhere along the way before doing Tec 45 and again before Tec 50. There may only be one book that covers them all, but from a consumer perspective they are simply not 1 course. On the other hand, if the instructor chooses, he or she definitely can teach TDI Intro to Tech, Advanced Nitrox, Decompression Procedures, and Helitrox all as one course. It can be done, start to finish in something like 3 days, with 6 required dives.

I'm not recommending to do it that quickly (unless your skills are already REALLY solid). I'm just making the point that it CAN be done like that, meaning it can be offered as legitimately one course. Not 3 courses done one immediately after the next.

 

[DevonDiver]

To confirm, TEC65 is an optional step en-route to TEC90.

As a TEC50 diver, you can enrol directly onto TEC90, if all other prerequisites (logged dives etc) are in place.

Or you can undertake TEC65 (5 dives) and, under some circumstances, only need to complete the remaining 3 dives to move up to TEC90. That applies if using the same instructor and you continue onto TEC90 within 6 months. Otherwise, you need to take an assessment dive and practical application before starting TEC90.

TEC65 just comprises the first 5 dives of the 8 dive TEC90 course..

TEC65
Dive 1 - max 10m
Dive 2 - 27-50m
Dive 3 - 30-50m
Dive 4 - 40-50m
Dive 5 - 45-65m
TEC TRIMIX
Dive 6 - 55-70m
Dive 7 - 65-80m
Dive 8 - 75-90m

The same course manual covers both courses.

As an instructor, one thing I like about the TecRec program is that it allows frequent 'sanity breaks' in the diver's progression. I feel less pressure... as do the students.. from being in an all-or-nothing scenario.

I first took that training as a diver when it was the old Tech Deep program. That was 12 dives and straight to Tec50/ER level. If you didn't meet the grade, you got nothing.

I found that demanding, even though I was already a TDI trained tech diver. The failure rate was much higher.. and/or instructors felt more pressure to sign off on students who had less than excellent competency.

One good side-effect of the old 'big course' format was that it represented a significant investment of time, money and effort for the student. That tended to promote a big motivation to prepare yourself diligently in advance.

I find that motivation more often lacking in students arriving for the modular Tec40-45-50 programme.... but that could also equally be due to a wider demographic of divers now interested in tech training.

Either way, not including recreational level prerequisites... or remedial dives.. the PADI TecRec student can progress to full trimix in a minimum of 20 training dives* (12 Tech Deep and 8 Tec Trimix).

*Actually, the very bare minimum is 18 dives as Tec Trimix dives 2 and 4 are optional (at instructor's discretion) if you progress from Tec50 to Tec Trimix within 6 months and have logged deco dives during that period.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You can do the TDI AN/DP courses in only 6 dives if you combine them and mix the standards together. If you are looking for the fastest possible way to get down beyond 200 feet using mixed gas, then in pure number of dives, TDI's is indeed fast--at least on paper. (Of course, you are assuming the TDI student has no need for Intro to Tech. The only time I ever had a TDI student skip that was when she came to me already cave certified.)

Then comes reality.

The number of dives is not what matters. What matters is the skills you demonstrate during those dives. If you don't complete the skills satisfactorily, you keep going until you do, and that is the same with both programs. For example, with PADI you have to be able to do a valve shutdown drill within 45 seconds while holding depth and position during a deco stop. For people in backmounted doubles, that is usually quite a challenge, and you don't just go into the water and do that on your first attempt. Or, likely, your second. Or your third. Or your fourth. There is a lot of training and practice involved.

Of course, you might be able to find an instructor who will allow you to go through the course solely on the basis of the number of dives and not worry so much about the quality of performance. Of course, you may find yourself having a free flowing alternate regulator at 200 feet while your buddy is engaged in something and not paying the slightest attention to you (as happened to me last year). At that point you have two choices: 1) Shut down the left post quickly, as you were trained, or 2) try to do it and fail, then try to shut off the isolator and fail, and then think, "You know, right now I wish my instructor had made me do this right before certifying me to do this dive" as your tanks empty into the ocean.

Well I am working on my GUE tec fundies pass (already have wreck), but my direction is sidemount anyway.

Just curious, where is the performance requirement for the valve drill stated? Anything for students to see, or is this information for the instructor (which is probably somewhere Googlable)?