The great big, all-inclusive Leisure Pro note

[simbrooks]

I don't see why everyone is so loyal to LDS's. They won't even match other regional shops in my area, much less LP's prices.

LP bashing gets really old on the board. Dont like LP? Use your LDS and pay 50% or more for what I get from LP and dont grumble about it.

Ok, i know it isnt the case elsewhere, but i priced up with an LDS last night (havent had all that much business with them so far, but intend to and they know it) - i know this wont be the case in all places either, but it is like what others choose to term "in my experience/area/whatever". An Apeks ATX200 reg w/TX50 octo, a set of pretty much standard gauges, Dive-Rite Al BP, trek wings and a deluxe harness. LP price (they only have ABS or SS BP's so i choose ABS as closer and ATX not TX50 octo - cant get everything at LP) ~1047 plus shipping (on something that large and heavy maybe $30?) oh and its sight unseen. LDS price (all instock that day - ready to walk out the door) ~1060 - that is pretty close if you ask me!! I know not everyone has the luxury of so many good LDS's to choose from in their area, but i stick to 3 pretty closely of the 10+ available within 20 miles of my house. Read above of the other deals i have available on tanks and the rental rebates from another LDS is i choose to go to them.

I know some LDS's rip you off, but a good one, that values your business will be just as competative as these online shops like LP (and give you customer service, not just an "i dont care" over the phone). I also get tired of the LP is the best thing since sliced bread assumption that is banded about.

BTW i get full manufacturer warranties on these items, not some imitation from the grey market dealers - who the manufacturers dont endorse - is there a reason for that???

 

[Arnaud]

From what I read in postings, what LDS's are complaining about isn't a gray market--it's more of tolerance of breaches of wholesale agreements that aren't being enforced. They're complaining that someone is selling merchandies to web-merchants in violation of their wholesaler/retailer sales agreement. If true, the wholesalers could put a stop to this with civil suit and a few well placed subpoenas using the American's over-reaching third party discovery rules. If I were a retailer, I'd have to wonder why they haven't.

European wholesalers are free to sell to anybody and any contractual provisions stating otherwise would not be enforceable. There is a very established case law about it. There can't be any sort of territorial limitation under EU's competition rules.

I don't know about Europe, but my understanding is that 'gray market' refers to the legal purchase off-shore of items that would cost more if purchased in the US--even after paying import duties. Customs has been dealing with this in recent year with delays of many, many months in approving imports of cars US citizens buy while living overseas. (It's not just the Americans. I forfeited the 'bond' I had to post for a US-registered car that was totalled while I was a Canadian resident of US citizenship, but that's another story.) Also, try to get warranty service in the US on, say, a Seiko you bought in St. Maarten and you'll run into another downside to the cost 'savings.'

The only reason they cost less is because there is a free market. Manufacturers are prohibited from price fixing over wholesale or retail. That, combined with the mere existence of wholesalers (in the States, scuba retailers order small volume directly from manufacturers), makes for "real" prices in the European dive industry. In Europe, online retailers are authorized by the manufacturers because manufacturers have no other option. But buying online will not be much cheaper than buying from a B&M retailer.

Go ahead and take a look at the UK site of Scubapro or DUI. They all link to authorized online stores that are a lot less expensive than their US counterparts (this is somewhat offset by the current weak $ right now).

I haven't looked at any case law but I'm pretty sure that a manufacturer that would not honor its warranty outside of Europe could be successfully sued in Europe as this is clearly construed as a market limitation.

 

[simbrooks]

I come from the UK, i looked into the LDS prices over there whilst i went back to visit family. If you are worried about prices over here, check some in LDS's over there, they are way more than LDS's over here. The same is very true of a few other things (cars in particular - hence the nickname rip-off Britain that the public has over there).

As for mainland Europe prices, they are all very dodgy and i wouldnt buy anything eastern European, nor from the French for that matter! I dont trust the hands the items have been through from being close to those areas. But that is just me, go ahead buy from your "legitimate sources".

 

[RiverRat]

So far I've done very well with LP. I always order online, eliminates some of the human factor. I'm close by in CT so I always order UPS ground and get my order in 2 days.

 

[Wendigo]

Don't get me wrong. If the prices were comparable to, let's say plus or minus $100, I'd recommend a LDS. But you still get to deal with the "human factor" as RiverRat put it, that can be undesirable to an unexperienced diver.

I will say we have a guy about 45 minutes away that own a local quarry and has a quasi-dive shop in a large trailer. I have bought from him for about 10 years and he gives me prices very near cost. Not sure how he does it, but he's a Zeagle dealer. Anyway, the problem is he leaves for Vietnam from the end of September to early April.
Not exactly convenient, so LP gets a lot of business. I guess I do show some loyalty to his operation, though it isnt exactly a LDS though.

 

[simbrooks]

Wendigo, sorry if it sounded like i was having a go at you about the LP thing, like i said, i know some arent as fortunate as I at having good LDS's. As for your quarry guy, any chance you could run that business as a side issue whilst he is away????

 

[Wendigo]

oh, no problem here, sim. I do wish we had more really dedicated LDSs here though.

hmmmm....that isnt a bad idea though....never thought about it.

I would rather move down your way though, considerably more water and comfortable diving there. :lightbulb:

 

[docmartin]

not sure what shops you looked at in the UK and when (lately the exchange rate has been out of whack) but prices in the UK tend to be considerably lower than here. also i am not quite clear on what represents eastern europe to you. you obviously have issues with the french but there are quite a few countries across the channel before you get to eastern europe. i cannot speak for all of these countries but germany definitely has better pricing on a lot of dive gear than the US (notable exception: halcyon). of course with the greenback hitting all time lows this is all changing...

 

[simbrooks]

Its nice down here most of the time, the SI's in the summer are something i am not going to look forward too!! I have only been doing this a few months, have already spent way too much and know i have at least another $2000 to go during the next few years - BC/reg and drysuit (for when we move north away from here). There is plenty of water here, but there is just too much heat in the all seasons, the winter here feels like summer back in UK - the reason most English tourists come over, that and Disney!! Not sure what we will find up in PNW in terms of LDS's, will cross that bridge and have half the kit before then (or at least 1st generation, to be replaced, added to whatever).

 

[simbrooks]

I know all to well about the exchange rate of USD to GBP, i still have school debts from graduate school back there and am paying more every month to hit the amount of the monthly payments due to the extremely weak $.

As for UK gear, my sister and brother-in-law got a BC, reg, and pair tanks combo for 1000GBP at a convention/show thing, that they considered very good price for that, under normal exchange that is roughly $1500 which is pretty good over here, at the mo its nearer $2000 which is a little over the odds. So i would assume as they got a good price at 1000GBP that a normal price would be more - hence some presumption, cant recall which brands/models - i wasnt diving at the time when i saw the kit so names were lost on me. However, dive trips over there, or in the area i used to live (wrecks about 1/2 mile out at most, can almost shore dive some of them) they were charging 100GBP a boat trip - tell thats not expensive!

I checked some stores around the area i did my bachelors in and the prices, even in older exchange rates were much higher than over here, now they are astronomically high to me!!