To those considering an OW class...

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PePaw:
Well, I think it's time to ask if we REALLY want someone just considering getting into diving and an OW class to read this thread or not ?
Its one of the few ways that someone considering getting into diving can become an informed customer.

PePaw:
Seems it's just turned into another PADI bashing outlet. Something the author specifically states that he did not want to happen in his original post.
Once again, the PADI apologists confuse analysis and history that points to problems with “bashing.”

What the OP actually said was:
Loosebits:
Based on my experience with this board, I know the kind of arguments this post is going to generate. People will argue that today's standards are adequate. People will argue that it's all agencies so-and-so's fault or blame it on the instructors or blame it on the prospective divers as they should know better. I don't want to get into a debate as I'm still tired from the last one I had that I mentioned earlier so I'm going to do my best to simply not reply. This whole thing is nothing more than my opinion formed by what I've observed in the lakes, the oceans and the caves. And we all know what opinions are like.
This was his closing paragraph in a long post that specifically criticized programs that were shortened to 10 hours of pool time and that singled out SSI and PADI for removing essential items from their entry level course and moving them into a separately priced products.

The OP also said:
Loosebits:
The point is diving, like many sports, isn't much fun unless you've been given the skills to do properly and those skills can't be learned in two days. If they could, we wouldn't see the drop out rate we're seeing today (if every diver certified stuck with it, there would a year long wait-list for a spot on the boat).
Was that “bashing?” It’s as critical as anything posted later.

PePaw:
I'll say this, it's a busy hectic world we live in. The wife and I took from September through December just trying to arrange our schedules to take the course we did. If (like you fine folks seem to be advocating), we had to try and set aside weeks or months to do our training, well we wouldn't be divers today. Loving the sport, wanting to learn more and do more and yes putting our dollars into the hobby.
Frankly I think that longer courses serve several purposes, one is providing adequate training (of course), but another is weeding out those who lack the commitment (for whatever reason) to dive often enough to maintain their skills. If you can’t make a class that meets on the same night for eight weeks or so and you can’t break loose two weekend days for open-water work, I doubt that you will dive enough to maintain, not to mention increase, your skills.

PePaw:
Let's all face the fact that the world we live in is market (and numbers) based, and not try to bash an organization that at some point recognized that fact. It's those "numbers" that drive further product development and increase the accessability and AFORDABILITY for all of us.
This "market driven" anaylsis is the “big lie” at the crux of the matter, and its repeated often enough that people believe it. The fact of the matter is that the lie came first, and even after field testing of a 20 hour course yielded a negative recommendation, it was promulgated anyway, not because there was a customer demand for it but because some of the manufacturers wanted it and some of the shops wanted it. The OP even had his own version of the lie:
Loosebits:
This was developed as part of an argument I had with a dive master.

There has been a trend in open water diving classes (and diving education in general) to ease the requirements needed to certify the diver. Years ago the basic OW class was very extensive and took weeks or months to complete. Today OW classes can be completed in two days.

Many, including myself, would argue that a diver cannot be adequately trained to safely dive in an open water environment in only two days. So, why the change? Well my guess is it is all about market pressures (emphasis Thal's). The prospective diver generally has no clue what skills are required to dive safely and to enjoy diving so many times they will seek the out the shortest (and cheapest) class they can find (if this were not the case, there would be no market for the two day class). The local dive shops, in order to remain in business, must offer increasingly easier, shorter and cheaper classes by going with the agency that at the time offers the shortest class. If a shop decides to hold out, they will lose business to the shop that doesn't. That market pressure then goes up the supply chain to the agencies. If agency #1 doesn't offer a two day program, they will lose share to agency #2 that does. .
But the OP had sufficient experience and insight to understand that the “prospective diver” is basically clueless (a purpose of this tread is to provide some clues) and that what most “prospective divers” find is inadequate:

Loosebits:
I took my open water class from a university program. The agency that program used is irrelevant. As I recall, the program consisted of 15 hours of lecture and 21 hours in the pool. I'm not a dive professional so I can't speak to the current minimum requirements but I believe a standard program today is less than 10 hours in the pool. For the pre-certified, not being certified as a professional (e.g. dive master or instructor) does not mean that I am less experienced or have had less training than a professional. It simply means I've decided to go a different route in my diving education (of which there are many), not the route that is required for me to teach others.

Anyway IMHO, ten hours is simply not enough for the average new diver to learn and practice all the skills they need to become comfortable with their gear or their environment. This has led to time spent on a specific skill to be reduced or the skill virtually eliminated all together. These sacrificed skills often show up later as new classes.
You (PePaw) believe that you initial training was well done. I respectfully submit that you haven’t any basis to make that judgment, one way or the other. Several threads (e.g. Minimum Proficiency) have addressed the skills that an entry level diver should master and I have yet to see a single example from a twenty hour class that even came close, except where the class was a refresher for a mossback.

It is not “bashing” to say that something is inadequate or wrong. It is not “bashing” to relate the history of a problem. And, at least in my opinion, it is not “bashing” to try and create a informed customer. The OP said it well in the first place:

Loosebits:
The point is diving, like many sports, isn't much fun unless you've been given the skills to do properly and those skills can't be learned in two days. If they could, we wouldn't see the drop out rate we're seeing today (if every diver certified stuck with it, there would a year long wait-list for a spot on the boat).

For the divers that do manage to stick with it, they will either need to struggle with a good number of dives or drop money on all the specialty classes that weren't even needed before OW became what it is today.

So please, spend the money now, take the longest class you can find or risk joining the crowd making room in their closet for the gear they'll never use again.

To all the experienced divers on this board who see a serious problem with the continual relaxing of standards, please help me resurrect the market for eight week classes.
 
If the current training is soooooo inadequate, Why do not we have bodies floating all over the world?
Facts: 1.We have multiple times the number of divers today than when most were either getting their certification through the YMCA or military. 100,000's of thousands more.
2. When Jacques was 20% of all the divers in the world, there was not 1,000s of dive ops all over the world, with "inadequately trained" instructors/DMs leading us all to our doom.
3. The equipment today is far superior to when Popular Mechanics had a "make your own" Scuba regulator article.


Get over it, Most will always dive with a DM while on vacation once or twice a year using rented equipment in the caribe or some other warm spot, with a buddy, in calm waters....


Dan does not have a great increse of deaths /injuries over previous years, even though the facts are ALOT more people are getting wet.

When I went Through Navy boot Camp, it was 12 and 1/2 weeks long, today its 9 weeks with most weekends off and they cant choke or hit recruits, women are interspersed with the guys and they have to use "more PC" words than the invectives I heard when I was in....Knee jerk actions say they aren't as good as "we" were, but thats just not true. In diving its the same thing, they don't need to know how to shoe a cavalry horse anymore......
 
billeelou:
If the current training is soooooo inadequate, Why do not we have bodies floating all over the world?
Facts: 1.We have multiple times the number of divers today than when most were either getting their certification through the YMCA or military. 100,000's of thousands more.
2. When Jacques was 20% of all the divers in the world, there was not 1,000s of dive ops all over the world, with "inadequately trained" instructors/DMs leading us all to our doom.
3. The equipment today is far superior to when Popular Mechanics had a "make your own" Scuba regulator article.


Get over it, Most will always dive with a DM while on vacation once or twice a year using rented equipment in the caribe or some other warm spot, with a buddy, in calm waters....


Dan does not have a great increse of deaths /injuries over previous years, even though the facts are ALOT more people are getting wet.

When I went Through Navy boot Camp, it was 12 and 1/2 weeks long, today its 9 weeks with most weekends off and they cant choke or hit recruits, women are interspersed with the guys and they have to use "more PC" words than the invectives I heard when I was in....Knee jerk actions say they aren't as good as "we" were, but thats just not true. In diving its the same thing, they don't need to know how to shoe a cavalry horse anymore......
It would appear to me that you have no idea of what you are talking about, especially that bogus comment about not needing to know how to shoe a horse. Of course you need to know how to shoe a horse, how else could you play waterpolo?

No really ... all that you posted has been refuted repeatedly, most of it right in this thread. Get yourself some background before you blow smoke and repeat meaningless clichés.
 
....yeah buddies, when we had to run 2 miles in less than 17 1/2 minutes, do 200 push ups in less than 5 minutes....and on into the YWCA's requirements in 1968....
 
Thalassamania:
Get yourself some background before you blow smoke and repeat meaningless clichés.

I agree with most of what he said, and the harshness in the tone of you dive Mullahs is a blemish on the sport. Not everyone is going to drink your Kool-Aid. Keep up with the times or move out of the way with your grumpy selfs. :rofl3:
 
billeelou:
....yeah buddies, when we had to run 2 miles in less than 17 1/2 minutes, do 200 push ups in less than 5 minutes....and on into the YWCA's requirements in 1968....
Again with the clinches, is that all you've got? In point of fact, I've never had students run or do pushups and I'm most not a Woman or a Christian, though in 1968 I was young.

Mafiaman:
I agree with most of what he said, and the harshness in the tone of you dive Mullahs is a blemish on the sport. Not everyone is going to drink your Kool-Aid. Keep up with the times or move out of the way with your grumpy selfs. :rofl3:
I don’t doubt that you agree with “him,” but harsh as it sounds, the truth is that I know at least two twelve year olds, each of whom has more dives than both of you combined. Yeah, it’s harsh, but its true, sorry.
 
Thalassamania:
I don’t doubt that you agree with “him,” but harsh as it sounds, the truth is that I know at least two twelve year olds, each of whom has more dives than both of you combined. Yeah, it’s harsh, but its true, sorry.

You sir are one of the contributing reason why certifying agency are allowing less and less instructor insight and more and more firm guide lines removing the possibility of personal opinions and over inflated egos from controlling this wonderful sport.

Granted the market does drive a portion of it, as it does in all things. But certifying agencies also want to insure fair, equal and balanced treatment of all of their students.

Your statement above pays testament you'd be one of the reasons for these standards.
You assume my profile is up to date, also unknown to you is by personal choice I only log my personal dive, none of my working dives. I keep them in a separate journal.

I too know some 12 year olds, and they are smart enough not to make such uninformed judgments.

Now lets do some math about your two 12 year olds, They can only be legally diving for 2 years now so 365daysX2years= 730 days X2 dives per day = 1460
They sir do not have more dive then me alone and number 1460dives, this is a virtual impossibility with sea and weather conditions, school days, sick days, and bad behavior days.

I'm sorry sir but your tank is not going to pass visual inspection and it does not hold air. :rofl3:
 
billeelou:
If the current training is soooooo inadequate, Why do not we have bodies floating all over the world?

How many do you need? How many rescues do I have to perform before you think that I've had to perform too many? How many unrecirded near misses that don't result in death or injury do we need before we address the cause?
Facts: 1.We have multiple times the number of divers today than when most were either getting their certification through the YMCA or military. 100,000's of thousands more.

Well we don't know how many active divers there are or how many dives they're doing. What we do know is that a lot of them are diving at resorts under supervision
2. When Jacques was 20% of all the divers in the world, there was not 1,000s of dive ops all over the world, with "inadequately trained" instructors/DMs leading us all to our doom.

Well, some get lead to their doom. How many is enough?
3. The equipment today is far superior to when Popular Mechanics had a "make your own" Scuba regulator article.

I don't know what Popular Mechanics had but regulators have functioned pretty much the same for many many years. Eqiupment reliability hasn't changed much in a very long time.
Get over it, Most will always dive with a DM while on vacation once or twice a year using rented equipment in the caribe or some other warm spot, with a buddy, in calm waters....

Most will dive with a DM? Really? The only time I have ever dived with a DM was when I was taking a class or when I was teaching and I was the DM's employer. Do you really think it's right to assume that a diver will be in good conditions under supervision when the agency states that the certification qualifies them to dive independantly?

Maybe most do dive that way but not all. If that's what the training is meant to qualify divers for then it should be clearly stated. It still wouldn't be any good but at least it would be honest.
Dan does not have a great increse of deaths /injuries over previous years, even though the facts are ALOT more people are getting wet.

No, it stays pretty constant. I wonder why there's no improvement. Also note that the number of dive shops aren't increasing. The number of resorts doesn't seem to be increasing. I see about the same number of divers at local sites from year to year. The faces change but the number seem pretty constant.
When I went Through Navy boot Camp, it was 12 and 1/2 weeks long, today its 9 weeks with most weekends off and they cant choke or hit recruits, women are interspersed with the guys and they have to use "more PC" words than the invectives I heard when I was in....Knee jerk actions say they aren't as good as "we" were, but thats just not true. In diving its the same thing, they don't need to know how to shoe a cavalry horse anymore......

My son is a Marine (currently in Iraq) and his boot camp was like 13 weeks and I don't recall him having any weekends off. Then he went to infantry school, then he went to some other school, then he trained with his unit for about a year before they sent him to Iraq. I'm not a military guy but I don't think it's a good idea for a Navy guy with nine weeks of training to pick a fight with him.

In diving it is the same thing. They aren't required to stay off the bottom, stay with a buddy, be able to control a descent or handle minor problems midwater but it sure makes diving easier and more fun...and can even enable you to survive where less capable divers couldn't. I'm glad, I finally learned something about diving and I'm glad my son got the 13 week boot camp instead of that nine week thing. And I can shoe a cavalry horse (or any other kind).
 
Thalassamania:
Fifty odd years of experience at several dozen major universities says that 12 is a good number. Break them up into two courses, Dependent Diver and Independent Diver, if you want, but get in about 100 hours of training with 12 open water dives.

To better understand the background of the periodic citation, across this and other threads, of a '100 hours' training stipulation, could you direct posters to a useful reference describing the content of such a program? The AAUS standards, for example, refer to 100 hours, but that is for their Scientific Diver designation, which would seem to go beyond what an entry-level recreational diver might need. I balance that comment with acknowledgment that there are data indicating the incidence of DCI among scientific divers is lower than for recreational or commercial divers, In a 1991 publication, the risk of DCI (in the US) was estimated at 1-2 incidents per 1,000-2,000 dives for commercial diving, 2 incidents per 10,000 dives for recreational diving, and 1 incident in 100,000 dives for the scientific diving community. I haven't seen more current data specifically comparing the three domains, but have no reason to presume it has changed.

I am not in any way disputing the value or appropriateness of the '100 hours / 12 dives' approach, just trying to get a better appreciation of the content of such an curriculum. I think others would welcome the opportinuity to better understand it as well.
 
If there is ten times as much DCI on commercial dives as there is in recreational diving (relatively) id say that complaining about the recreational diver training is the wrong place to start to decrease the total ammount of DCI incidents..
A 0.02 percent chance of DCI for a recreational dive I wouldnt say is all that bad..
Of course, 0,001 percent would be BETTER tho..
 
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