Upgrading to DSLR - 600D, 60D or 7D

[drcolyn]

I want to upgrade from a G10 to a DSRL with Ikelite housing and the following options are within my price range:
Nikon D90, Canon 550D/600D (T2/T3), Canon 60D and if I really break the bank a 7D.
I mostly do macro shots of stationary objects and small fish.
The more camera reviews I read the less I am certain about which model will give me the best value for money in terms of functions that are actually usefull underwater - housing prices are relatively the same for all so that is not a factor and I will have to get a 60mm macro lens anyway. I use liveview and autofocus a lot.

If I go for the 60D which is the highest spec camera in my price range - will I regret it later that I did not sell some stuff and get the 7D instead ?

DPreview mentioned a "slow AF in live mode" for the 60D which is not good when taking fish pics - and this is one of the things that I would like to improve on from the G10.
I am also worried that the 60D's new mode dial lock will cause it to be fixed once in the housing.

 

[bkkchris]

As a 7D owner here is my opinion.

Hands down the 7D is the superior camera but I would say mostly just from an ergonomics/build quality point of view - photo/video quality I would be hard pressed to point out the 7D vs. 550D/600D vs. 60D (in fact I have seen some examples where I felt the 550D had a bit better image quality).

That said, the 550D/600D are a bit more difficult in a housing due to only having the one adjustment wheel on the back for changing settings, shutter speed, whatever you set it too, vs. the 60D and 7D having two.

There is also a lot to be said about size/weight with the 550/600D being much smaller lighter - but at the expense of worse plastic build and no weather sealing. I actually have been thinking of switching from the 7D to 550D for this exact reason.

My opinion (again as an owner of a 7D with Nauticam housing):
If you main concern is underwater I would go for the cheaper 550/600D in (the more expensive) Nauticam housing because that housing is amazing for the camera and very very ergonomic to the point of being better than the camera alone on land and for my taste better than the Nauticam 7D housing. If Ikelite was my only housing option, I think the lack of the second adjustment wheel on the camera and the Ikelite not having the best ergonomics would probably push me to the 7D.

Also, if budget is a concern and your looking to buy glass as well, I would also say get the 550D and put the money saved on the body to good glass. All the cameras you are looking at need good glass in my opinion to really do justice.

The 60D is a great camera. I just don't think its worth the money over the 550/600 and if your looking to spend the extra money, the 7D is money better spent.

Regarding the AF-Live view. All three are going to be rubbish. Use the viewfinder. If you really want to use live-view, stick with a compact or a M4/3, Sony NEX, Panasonic GH2, etc. The live view on DSLRs is pretty poor unless your doing land macro on a tripod, or shooting wide angle video with a big depth of field.

If your going to use the camera a fair amount on land, then the 7D is the better handling camera. Better autofocus, weather sealing/build quality, etc., etc.

If I was doing it over again - and this was 75%+ for just an underwater setup.
550D in a Nauticam. Get the 10-17 Tokina, the 100mmL or 60mm, the Nauticam small dome and then a really good prime for on land use, like the 35mmL, that way if you do find you use the camera more on land or upgrade in the future, most of your investment was on good glass not the body.

 

[dhaas]

Dr Colyn and bkkchris,

I think as bkkchris you'd be hard pressed to tell any photographic difference in images taken with any of these camera. I've shot all (OK, T2i as I haven't tried the T3i yet, but same sensor is in all) and as bkkchris says the lens choices is key.

I currently own a 60D mainly because I wear glasses and for surface use I found the PentaPRISM viewfinder and all 9 AF focus points being cross type to be a tad better than the T21i / T3i (550D / 600D) model. Not a huge difference as I've used every generation Rebel series, plus 20D, 40D, even 5D above and underwater in Ikelite housings.

Ikelite housing are an incredible value and let me address the issues many post about in real world use plus Canon model differences.....

* Canon 7D is weatherproof and has a 100% viewfinder in eyepiece Very, very nice.....The 7D shoot 8FPS (frames per second) but this is more for surface sports shooting than UW. That said I used a 7D for a competitive swimmer shoot (see Ikelite BLOG post at IKELITE Underwater Systems) Great AF with almost too much menu choices to set up. Many buy it and struggle until reading the manual many times. This camera is also HEAVY and yes, claims 100% weatherproof (see comments below about this.)

* Canon 60D has a 96% PentaPRISM Viewfinder, plenty fast AF speed and will do 5.3 FPS. Lighter, has front and rear command dials and the main feature I chose it for last fall. Wireless surface flash in eTTL with Canon flash units off camera FYI the NEW Canon 600D / T3i has added this feature now......Lighter weight than a 7D and feels a bit more substantial than T2i / T3i and at least $500.00 less than a 7D.

* Canon 600D / T3i has all features less multiple configuration AF and no rear command dial. This is not as big a deal as people think......Ikelite housings and Nauticam and others have a control that is held in to depress the rear button making the front command dial the f-stop adjustment.

You'll change f-stop more after selecting shutter speed for wide angle background brightness or for macro a dark background. Lightest camera of the bunch, responsive enough, 96% PentaMIRROR viewfinder (not as bright as 60D or 7D but certainly usable) and a joy to carry all day.

I've used many lower price bodies (you can buy TWO for back up and trips) and the always touted "build quality and weatherproofness" is ridiculous in my opinion. If you totally flood your housing in salt water your camera will be toast anyway, even a 7D and / or the lens on it. I guarantee it......

I don't about you but I stand in a pouring rain storm taking photos unless I'm under an umbrella or have weatherproof "snoot" type gizmo covering my whole camera except the lens sticking out. Hell, a lady's shower cap in hotel bathrooms has served as rain bonnet a more than once

Lesnes are key and the most recommended to start are Tokina 10-17mm Fisheye or Sigma 15mm F2.8 Fisheye for wide angle. Then Canon 60mm for macro. The Canon 100mm Macro allows a bit more working room but will challenge new SLR shooters underwater viewing and framing tiny subjects.

Finally, housings..........

Yes, I'm an Ikelite dealer but also avid USER of their housings. I think they are a great value allowing you to SEE your camera is safe inside. Many folks use a camera body for a few years and then only upgrade to the NEWEST selling the camera body and housing body. All ports, cords, strobes and arms will work TTL flash wise with future models.

I've seen and used many other brands. Many are works of art but also do not offer TTL / Manual flash control from housing circuitry just like you have a dedicated flash in your hot shoe. You can over ride to manual if you like to also.

Fiber optic tripping of flashes (Optical synch as it's called) is popular with some brands but you will have to fire your built in flash each time. Many dial this down to simply trip their external units and get good results once they know what MANAUL settings they need for f-stop and distances. I think TTL is much, much better and shoot it on WA and macro. those who pooh pooh TTL on WA have never shot a system UW with it.....

Many posters will also say Fiber Optic cords are cheaper and more reliable. I disagree......too each his own.

Some of the other brand housings controls are closer, sexier, etc. but in real world use anyone who has used and practiced with their camera will be adjusting settings a lot less in the brief time we have UW. Many lead people to believe they need to adjust multiple settings the whole dive to get good images.

IMHO this is just my real world experience helping many, many Ikelite users get great photos UW with any model camera.

So I guess my recommendation if you want front / rear command dials, a slightly better viewfinder is go with the 60D. Right now the darn thing is within like $30.00 USD of the newest announced 600D / T3i.

If you'll shoot sports above water (8FPS) and want the 100% viewfinder plus can deal with weight for travel (a HUGE pet peeve of mine is always reducing weight wherever I can) then go for the 7D.

If the 600D / T3i comes down a bit soon buy 2

Hope this didn't confuse you and gave another perspective.

David Haas
David Haas Underwater Photography

 

[arkstorm]

Good analysis dhass. I would add one thing -- The differences between the newly announced 600D/T3i and the 550D/T2i are truly minimal and almost a non-issue for shooting underwater, e.g., wireless external flash firing, etc. Nonetheless, the price on the T2i will probably come down shortly as demand increases for the newer model. I would suggest going with the T2i and taking advantage of a good deal on a great camera.

The 7D is clearly a more sophisticated camera but before shelling out the extra bucks you really need to ask yourself if you need all those features. Chances are, if you don't make a living with your camera, the answer will be no.

The 60D is sort of a strange middle child. Its a great camera but since Canon went to a plastic body with this series its probably not worth the extra $$ over the Rebel. And like dhass suggested, the faster burst capability is really only an issue in professional sports photography.

What I certainly second is that the Ikelite housing is an amazing value. It accesses every camera function quickly and efficiently. I truly don't see the justification in spending twice as much on other housings. While a glass port might be better in theory I can never recall looking at a shot and saying, "If only I had a glass port this would have been better!" Also, Ikelite's product support is excellent. they really know how to take good care of their customers.

With regards to lenses, choosing the right lens is perhaps more important than the camera body. While the Tokina 10-17mm fisheye is a favorite among underwater shooters, a very viable alternative would be a rectilinear ultra wide angle lens which provides a truer perspective and also tends to perform very well topside. Two which I highly recommend are the Canon 10-22mm and Tamron 10-24mm. I prefer shooting a rectilinear lens because I find the exaggerated perspective of a fisheye to be quite noticeable, even underwater. Its a cool effect, but not one that I would want on most shots.

Anyway, good luck putting your rig together and have fun.

- Cheers

 

[Doubler]

Good analysis. Go with Ikelite housing, T2i, Tokina 10-17, Zen dome for Ikelite.

 

[dhaas]

Arkstorm and Doubler,

All great points and I'll add a couple more comments......

The T2i can be had for less $$$$ where they're selling the newest T3i also. So yes, you can many times get a great deal on essentially the same sensor as the 7D and 60D. Right now here in the US the T3i and 60D are so close in price I'd say make your choice on how much WEIGHT you want to haul as both will deliver great photos.

Despite some site lamenting "plastic construction out shell" of the 60D it has proven every bit as robust for about 5000 pics so far for me

FYI I've shot several Rebel XT, XTi, XSi and T1i up past 25,000 clicks and they still were going strong. So don't buy the "shutter failure myths" of 50K or whatever. Replacing a shutter in any Rebel series is cheap, too, about $150.00.

As far as lenses I will agree with Arkstorm on selecting a nice rectilinear (square framing, NOT Fisheye) if you want a nice surface wide shooting lens usable UW. Although on any "cropped sensor" like the T3i, 60D or 7D the FIsheye effect is minimized somewhat. Many people viewing photos if it doesn't have a straight line like man made wreck or whatever can't tell it was shot with a Fisheye lens.

I've personally shot Canon the 10-22mm EF-S Lens. People bitch about a tad of corner softness but I found even in a 6" extended dome port if you zoom ever so slightly to about 12mm and don't shoot much wider than f8 it's fine.

You can even add a mild +2 diopter for slight corner sharpness increase in Ikelite's 6" dome or 8" dome port.

I myself use either the Tokina 10-17mm Fisheye or lately back to the fixed Sigma 15mm f2.8 Fisheye.

But I wouldn't hesitate to get just the Canon 10-22mm and use it as my primary wide angle optic above and below. Three photos below were shot with the Canon 10-22mm.

Hope we helped Dr Colyn with some ideas

dhaas

 

[Onewolf]

And just to add my $.02, as someone who upgraded last year from a G10/FIX system to a 550D/Nauticam system, I cannot over-emphasize how poorly LiveView AF functions compared to using the viewfinder. As someone expressed previously, if you think you need to use the LiveView LCD on the back to compose/focus, you would be much better off not going to an SLR system.

BTW, I bought the Nauticam 'deluxe' viewfinder with the housing and it is incredible compared to using just the built-in 550D viewfinder.

 

[drcolyn]

Hi All
Thanks for the tons of replies and valuble insight from first hand experience.
Glad to hear picture quality is right up there on all three models - the 7D will really break the bank so its down to the T2 versus 60D (13% price difference in South Africa).
Since I have to swop the live view for the view finder - do you agree that the brighter 60D is worth the price difference?
Since I will have a dslr now where the aperture changes really makes a difference the 2 dials on the 60D seems a plus?
The housing will be Ikelite - even a Nauticam with the T2 is above my budget but I am fine with acrylic housings - this will be my third and I have never flooded one - always good to see what the o-ring is doing
The only gripe I have with the Ike housing is the loss of optical trigger for the STTL function on my Inon Z240 & YS01 strobe. I cannot believe that all the Ikelite users out there use only Ikelite strobes?
Silly question - Ikelite makes an electric to optic signal converter for a very reasonable price - is it not possible to connect that directly the outside of the housing with some kind of adapter?
Second choice will be to use the Ike electric sync cords and go manual - with my strobe positioning that will probably not make that much of a difference as I experienced with the YS01. It kept underexposing on ETTL setting so I went to manual and quite like the predictable constant power.
Has anybody tried attaching that delux nauticam viewfinder to the Ike housing - I shoot a lot of shots very low on the bottom and viewfinder at 45' angle will save a lot of neck cramps.
Regards
drcolyn

 

[BluewaterPhoto]

I'd get the Sea & Sea housing with the Canon T2i, it's about the same price as the Ikelite for a much better housing

 

[dhaas]

Dr Colyn,

YES, most Ikelite SLR housing users do use Ikelite strobes so the housing's built in TTL circuitry gives them that important feature.

Ikelite does make cords that would attach to your INON or Sea and Sea strobes but their circuitry is not Ikelite's. So you would be shooting in MANAUL mode. Great for something sitting still, not so great for a moving subject where TTL can make or break the shot.

As far as adding an expensive 45 degree or other viewfinder to the Ikelite back I'm sure there's someone out there doing it. But plan on an extra $600 - $800 for the viewfinder PLUS the adaptation costs.

I just stand on my head to get low for shots like you refer to

Good luck,

dhaas