Whaling thread gone

[Mr.X]

I have no problem with people who are anti-whaling, stand up and say so, and try to get it stopped from within the IWC. I also have no problem with people who argue that point of view from an objective stand point. I don't and won't eat whale myself and if it was being done for me they could stop doing it tomorrow as I don't need it.

If you check my posts in the threads concerned I think it will be clear enough that I find it wrong for one culture to try to assume a sort of moral superiority about something that someone else is doing while at the same time defending their own right to behave exactly how they wish even if the whole world is against them. It strikes me as hypocritical. When I see that I feel the need to try to explain from the Japanese perspective the reasons for their actions. This does not mean that I support what they do personally - it simply means that I choose not to judge them by my own standards.

Whales are sea mammals. We eat several land mammals some of whom have a provably high intelligence. Even if they didn't I personally think that justifying eating some - but not others - is very morally suspect. .

Very interesting. Check the recent BBC thread I posted. I would imagine that Stanford U. did a decent job with their DNA metrics.

Cultures are shaped by other cultures. Japan's predominant cultural influence has always been China. Much as the Japanese don't like to admit it. Hence, my argument is that other countries have always had sway in each other's welfare / economics since the beginning of the first human skirmish for food.

I use a particular standard to meter my perspective. I believe that no one has the right to hurt another and I believe that individuals have a right to their own thoughts. In the case of the Minkes I believe there is a large potential for these whaling nations to deprive the world of a global, migratory species. Convenient phrases like “breeding like cockroaches’ are merely propaganda to get the hunt started.

With the Antarctic Minkes, true sustainability runs counter to Japan’ s loosely veiled scientific expedition to collect. True sustainability is threatened by a scientific study? What a contradiction! Nobody appreciates duplicity. At least the Norwegians are up front about it. Sadly, the IWC (meant to protect this global species) is nothing more than a puppet organization with very little in the way of enforcement or teeth. The IWC reminds me of Barney Fife from the old Andy Griffith series. Says a lot, gyrates a bit and does nothing in the end.

I understand many feel that whales are just the equivalent of cows, but they are not. Ask a cetaceanologist or someone who works with them. I've worked with little whales in aquariums. Wonderful personalities. I like cows too. I also understand the need to cull when things go funny as with deer and bear in the US.

Paradigm shifts are rare things. No one expects these whaling nations to change much. However, I would just ask others watching this thread to do their best to educate the children as to the positive and negatives of hunting a pressured species just for the meat. Their influence can certainly go a long way. As per pro-harvesters, please consider that there really isn’t a huge need to go whaling other than an acquired, or cultural taste and that pressured stocks should be allowed to return to true levels of sustainability supported by reputable statistics.

 

[Cacia]

There's a slight difference between the Japanese who are killing whales and those Japanese you bump into at the supermarket. Those folks are called Americans.

My neighborhood, Hawaii Loa Ridge is about one half Japanese wealthy nationals who spend part of the year here. You, "berty" don't know what you are talking about.

oh, okay. Like half the flights in here are not from Japan. excuse me, I shoulda known. they are Americans. I honestly did not know.

See? this is what I am talking about. I wish i was as calm and articulate as MR.X. (thanks for your elegant reasoned words, we actually stand a chance with people like you amongst us)

 

[Mr.X]

There's a slight difference between the Japanese who are killing whales and those Japanese you bump into at the supermarket. Those folks are called Americans.

There's a Japanese supermarket in Manhattan called Katagiri. If you go there a lot of the clientele is Japanese. They are there with their respective corporations. They are not American. Just thought I would give you some regional perspective.

 

[Kim]

Very interesting. Check the recent BBC thread I posted. I would imagine that Stanford U. did a decent job with their DNA metrics.

Yes I imagine that they did. I would think though that you would have to accept that without the availability of the whalemeat to sample and test to begin with then we wouldn't be aware of this information.

In the case of the Minkes I believe there is a large potential for these whaling nations to deprive the world of a global, migratory species. Convenient phrases like “breeding like cockroaches’ are merely propaganda to get the hunt started.

I respect that this is what you think, and I also think the 'breeding like cockroaches' type of statement is probably as untrue as some of the rhetoric from the other side. However, I don't see real evidence that the present levels of whaling activity are likely to 'deprive the world of a global, migratory species'. Taking less than 1% annually of a stock is a very far cry from what used to happen that created a need for the original moritorium.

With the Antarctic Minkes, true sustainability runs counter to Japan’ s loosely veiled scientific expedition to collect. True sustainability is threatened by a scientific study? What a contradiction! Nobody appreciates duplicity. At least the Norwegians are up front about it. Sadly, the IWC (meant to protect this global species) is nothing more than a puppet organization with very little in the way of enforcement or teeth. The IWC reminds me of Barney Fife from the old Andy Griffith series. Says a lot, gyrates a bit and does nothing in the end.

I believe that true sustainability is exactly in the interests of the whaling nations. If the species were to become extinct then there would be no more arguments about the culture of eating whales, as there wouldn't be any left! An argument is also made concerning Japan's buying of votes in the IWC. It strikes me that Japan is not the worlds largest economic power and if they really wanted to do something about it the US could easily offer more 'incentive' to gain those same votes. Let's face it - in other areas of national interest that is exactly how the US (and everyone else) already behaves. So why not with whaling? At least Japan pays some kind of lip service to the IWC, or they would just ignore it completely and do what they want. This is not what is happening though.

I understand many feel that whales are just the equivalent of cows, but they are not. Ask a cetaceanologist or someone who works with them. I've worked with little whales in aquariums. Wonderful personalities. I like cows too. I also understand the need to cull when things go funny as with deer and bear in the US.

I believe pigs are the ones with very high intelligence levels. This to me though is not the main point. I feel uneasy that humanity makes decisions of what other creatures are OK to eat based on perceived intelligence. Apply the principle to people and you end up with people who think that clever people are more important than stupid ones. This was tried in the 1940s with rather horrific consequences and in terms of rights of people - or animals - is flawed thinking IMO.

Paradigm shifts are rare things. No one expects these whaling nations to change much. However, I would just ask others watching this thread to do their best to educate the children as to the positive and negatives of hunting a pressured species just for the meat. Their influence can certainly go a long way. As per pro-harvesters, please consider that there really isn’t a huge need to go whaling other than an acquired, or cultural taste and that pressured stocks should be allowed to return to true levels of sustainability supported by reputable statistics.

This is correct - change takes a long time. My wife grew up eating whale meat regularly. Our children have never eaten it at all. Which way do you think that will eventually lead to? Basically these days in Japan it is not available in any amount all over the place. Sure, there are a couple of fish markets in Tokyo and a few other places - but it really is small compared to the past. I actually live about 30 miles from Shiminoseki where the whaling fleet left from and returns to. It doesn't seem to have led to any supply around here though.

 

[H2Andy]

in your nice neat pretty homogenous world there, probably don't fully appreciate.

yeah, because coming from Cuba at the age of 13 and having to adapt to
an English-speaking, completley foreign culture to me constitutes a
homogenous world.

(the above is sarcasm)

btw, come down to FLorida some time before you make up your mind what
kind of world we live in down here.

my point was, that if cultures are to live together, they have to accept each
other. you can't force your view on others.

seems you missed that point completely, though

 

[Mr.X]

Yes I imagine that they did. I would think though that you would have to accept that without the availability of the whalemeat to sample and test to begin with then we wouldn't be aware of this information.

I respect that this is what you think, and I also think the 'breeding like cockroaches' type of statement is probably as untrue as some of the rhetoric from the other side. However, I don't see real evidence that the present levels of whaling activity are likely to 'deprive the world of a global, migratory species'. Taking less than 1% annually of a stock is a very far cry from what used to happen that created a need for the original moritorium.

I believe that true sustainability is exactly in the interests of the whaling nations. If the species were to become extinct then there would be no more arguments about the culture of eating whales, as there wouldn't be any left! An argument is also made concerning Japan's buying of votes in the IWC. It strikes me that Japan is not the worlds largest economic power and if they really wanted to do something about it the US could easily offer more 'incentive' to gain those same votes. Let's face it - in other areas of national interest that is exactly how the US (and everyone else) already behaves. So why not with whaling? At least Japan pays some kind of lip service to the IWC, or they would just ignore it completely and do what they want. This is not what is happening though.

I believe pigs are the ones with very high intelligence levels. This to me though is not the main point. I feel uneasy that humanity makes decisions of what other creatures are OK to eat based on perceived intelligence. Apply the principle to people and you end up with people who think that clever people are more important than stupid ones. This was tried in the 1940s with rather horrific consequences and in terms of rights of people - or animals - is flawed thinking IMO.

This is correct - change takes a long time. My wife grew up eating whale meat regularly. Our children have never eaten it at all. Which way do you think that will eventually lead to? Basically these days in Japan it is not available in any amount all over the place. Sure, there are a couple of fish markets in Tokyo and a few other places - but it really is small compared to the past. I actually live about 30 miles from Shiminoseki where the whaling fleet left from and returns to. It doesn't seem to have led to any supply around here though.

I appreciate your argument(s) and concur with the exception of sustainability. I am most relieved by your last statement to know that the trend is on the downslide. I'm sure the moratorium, popular culture and environmental PR were major factors.

When I saw some of the Russian whalers in the late 70's, as well as pics. of the Japanese fleet I could see that the whalers were trying to extract the last bits of product to pay off substantial up-front expenditures. Sustainability was not on their minds. They would have whaled to extinction if given the opportunity.

The Soviet ships were in deplorable condition (nothing was being put in towards refurbishment) and subsequently the Russian whaling industry soon vanished. What was most surprising is that the Russians on board were openly hostile when the ‘politik’ was on deck, and openly apologetic to the environmentalist when they weren't being watched. They held out teddy bears and waved apologies. Very sad, since it was clear that the community on board was there only to feed their families. They had no heart for it.

I am rather confused by the new Japanese fleet boats. They look brand new. I wonder if they have double-duty capability? Cheers. X

 

[Cacia]

Andy, so sorry I got you mixed up with Kim. well, actually i spent a lot of time in Miami and used to have a home at Turnberry Isle. So, Andy, you see, I have "been on down to Florida". Just came back from visiting my Grandmother in Port Charlotte and my parent's place in Punta Gorda just got nailed by the hurricanes. I think I am pretty familiar with Florida. You are condescending also.

And I think its sorta irresponsible for you to be telling some lady in the middle of a love-hate drama who has no experience with handguns to go get a Glock. That is exactly the person who probably shouldn't. AND before you say anything I own a Glock and have spent much of my life around firearms since my dad was career FBI and taught at the academy. (before you pat me on my little head because I do not know anything about guns either) Who said I am FORCING anybody to do anything? I reserve the right to oppose whaling without being told I know nothing about Japanese culture and that I am racist. And yes, I have a couple degrees and actually am familiar with sarcasm. I know that's one of your favorite modes of conversation. (that's not sarcasm). Hope I get banned and give up the priviledge of you moderating my anything. You two guys set really bad examples as moderators, in my opinion. Guess what? I am a pretty good diver and have some things to contribute here. Read all my other posts and see if I am picking fights or talking about diving. You offend me with your sarcasm and arrested intellectual BS. You seem to get pretty political whenever it suits you. Oh sorry, off-topic. (sarcasm)

thats it for me.

 

[Mr.X]

yeah, because coming from Cuba at the age of 13 and having to adapt to
an English-speaking, completley foreign culture to me constitutes a
homogenous world.

(the above is sarcasm)

btw, come down to FLorida some time before you make up your mind what
kind of world we live in down here.

my point was, that if cultures are to live together, they have to accept each
other. you can't force your view on others.

seems you missed that point completely, though

...as much as you suggest cooperation your words imply aggression. Lighten up man. Additionally, my parochial school upbringing suggests speaking to a lady in a mannered tone. My two cents for the cordial South.

 

[Cacia]

And I am sorry for losing it. Kim, Andy, Mr X's example shames me into realizing that I am stooping and I need to lighten up.

 

[Kim]

I reserve the right to oppose whaling without being told I know nothing about Japanese culture and that I am racists.

I have never argued your right to oppose whaling and have earler stated quite clearly that it was not your comments that I found offensive in the whaling thread.(http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1426304&postcount=170) Why you still seem to think that I am accusing you of being racist is quite beyond me!

As far as Japanese culture goes I can only say that in spite of being married to a Japanese lady and having lived here for 6 years, my understanding is still far from complete. I can say from personal observation though that it is changing very rapidly for a country so unaccustomed to such change. Outside influences due to satellite TV and the Internet, as well as far more people travelling outside of Japan, are very powerful forces. These changes will not happen overnight though and simply telling people that they should be ashamed of themselves and other such accusations won't make it happen any faster!

I have remained polite and civil in this entire conversation. Just because I am a moderator does not mean that I may not express my personal views on things. I'm sorry that you think it's OK to call me names and tell me I'm such a 'bad example'. Luckily there are many others though that actually appreciate the number of hours everyday that we mods contribute to the board in order to keep it a decent place where people such as yourself can express themselves.