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catherine96821:
and I think you need to be careful to allow others to feel welcome to present their opinions.
catherine96821:
I just think your first responsibility is to make sure the tone welcomes other's points of view also.
I'm not going say that I'm sorry if I argue my point of view as intelligently as I can. I do welcome other points of view and try to be very civil with my answers. The fairly in depth discussion I have held with Mr X for instance is a good example. If I see weaknesses in an argument though I will highlight them, and offer counter-argument that is as strong as I can make. Isn't this just the nature of debate? Sometimes I will also accept another's point of view while reserving the right to disagree with it. This does not mean that I think I'm right and the other is wrong - that can be too absolute and impossible to judge without enough facts. Sometimes it simply remains different opinions. While it is certainly a Moderators responsibility to remain polite and civil, it doesn't mean we may not argue our own points of view. The funny thing is, that in the original debate I actually found your simple and very honest opinions to be one of the most compelling arguments on that side of the debate. This was why I made a great effort to tell you I didn't include you among those making the kind of statements that I considered to amount to racism - and I also didn't attack your position. I know you feel strongly about this issue and I respect that. I was rather surprised yesterday when I read your recent posts here and I felt that you were probably misunderstanding my intent.
catherine96821:
You just keep driving your point and I notice you all did not seem too upset about the human being that almost was harpooned quite intentionally by the Japanese whaler. I was only making the point that it seems odd to me to be "pissed" as you said about the poor little coral and not have much compassion left over for the person who was almost murdered. It just strikes me very...peculiar.
First of all I can only say that I was completely unaware of this incident until yesterday. Although I watch the BBC World service news every day via satellite there have been no reports of it. If indeed it was a deliberate attempt to harm someone then I would abhor it. There does seem to be some questions concerning the claim though if I read some of the other posts above. If we didn't already guess for ourselves, Mr X (who has some experience I believe) has also highlighted how dangerous it is to do what Greenpeace does. The fact is that for whatever higher reason, they are trying to interfere with large ships that are busy trying to do something they are legally entitled to do. That someone might get hurt is probably a foregone conclusion but as it is completely the choice of Greenpeace to be there doing this, it's hard to feel sympathy if there are accidents. However, like I said (and kompressor mentioned above) history has shown that Greenpeace is not above twisting real events to suit their own purposes and in this case I simply don't know what happened. The coral is to me something rather different. I take a very dim view of wanton unnecessary destruction done in a protected marine park simply to have a photo saying: "I was here first,,,na, na, ni, na,na" (which seems to be a reasonable translation of what was written). If the Japanese were simply chasing whales to carve their names in the beasts flanks and take similar pictures I would be even more incensed.
 
Mr.X:
Me - done with you.

promise??

:wink:


but again, i suggest you find out what a personal attack is
and why they are not proper means of furthering your
argument... i keep bringing them up 'cause you keep making them

stop making them and i'll stop bringing them up.

i ask: can you make ONE post in
response to me without making a personal attack?

apparently not...
 
well, Kim, I do not mind being the only one to apologize. Again, that's my problem with your whole approach. As smart as you are I think you do not even realize what I am talking about. For you, its just "facts". Maybe its an emotional intelligence as opposed to intellectual intelligence issue. Hope all is okay with us but I hope you all are satisfied now that Mr x says he's "done." I really thought he was one of the best posters on this thread. I guess it will just be you two in here patting each other on the back. Oh...and Kompressor who should keep you amused. Hope you haven't been offended and I am sorry for flipping out about the whales. Some people have an intangible spiritual...pull ..that is not logical for purely linear thinkers.
It is natural that people who commune with the ocean and frequent this forum would want to have a receptive place to lament their environmental grievances. All those folks---well from what I can tell, they have all left. Except for the Don't EVER touch a Nudi crowd. I don't see any spiritual perspective.
 
Kim:
Catherine - I'm sorry if you see me as condescending as that is completely not my intention
That was one of the first things I posted.
catherine96821:
As smart as you are I think you do not even realize what i am talking about.
I can see very clearly that what you think comes from your heart. I've told you a couple of times that I respect your position.
catherine96821:
Hope all is okay with us but I hope you all are satisfied now that Mr x says he's "done." I really thought he was one of the best posters on this thread.
I very much doubt if he's 'done' :D I agree that Mr X brings a lucidity of argument to the debate that can be refreshing. As he totally agrees with your point of view I can also see why you would think he is the 'best poster'! :D He appears to also be only human though so I suppose the occasional personal attack is to be expected, although it doesn't help to win arguments! eyebrow
 
catherine96821:
well, Kim I do not mind being the only one to apologize. Again, that's my problem with your whole approach. As smart as you are I think you do not even realize what i am talking about. For you, its just "facts". Maybe its emotional intelligence as opposed to intellectual intelligence. Hope all is okay with us but I hope you all are satisfied now that Mr x says he's "done." I really thought he was one of the best posters on this thread. I guess it will just be you two in here patting each other on the back. Oh...and Kompressor who should keep you amused. Hope you haven't been offended and I am sorry for flipping out about the whales. Some people have an intangible spiritual...pull that is not logical for purely linear thinkers.


Hi Catherine...thanks. I won't leave this thread. It's far too interesting. I'm done only with "record players". Kim has offered supportive evidence on occasion and Kompressor can be entertaining (even supplies gross-out pics). :) I agree that metrics are not the end all. In short, it's the intangibles that make us most human. Numbers do bite, sometimes they are way off, and certainly do not reflect natrual intuition which is so necessary when making decisions that protect those who have no voice.

Your heartfelt posts have been appreciated by many out there who share our perspective. Cheers. X
 
Mr.X:
Hi Catherine...thanks. I won't leave this thread. It's far too interesting. I'm done only with "record players". Kim has offered supportive evidence on occasion and Kompressor can be entertaining (even supplies gross-out pics). :) I agree that metrics are not the end all. In short, it's the intangibles that make us most human. Numbers do bite, sometimes they are way off, and certainly do not reflect natrual intuition which is so necessary when making decisions that protect those who have no voice.

Your heartfelt posts have been appreciated by many out there who share our perspective. Cheers. X
So...who is patting who on whose back!!?? :wink: :D
 
yea, it feels kinda good.

I guess maybe we have even teams. Who wants kompressor? I want to see him pitted against Andy. Now that could be a real cockfight. We need to lure them into a new topic though.

cute use of icons BTW.
 
Catherine touched on something in a previous post that warrants further examination.

I'm a scientist (a biologist with a background in oceanography and marine fisheries management). I certainly understand that whales can be censused, tagged, tracked, collected (i.e., killed), biopsied, autopsied, ad infinitum to create a substantial database to determine if populations can be subjected to commercial harvesting pressures. Fairly typical resource sustainability assessment methodology.

But, even with the formal knowledge that dictates valid, robust, reproducible datasets should drive decision-making, there is something about these particular animals that awes/inspires/fascinates me and many others. I'm assuming this is the 'magnificence' that Catherine mentions.

There is some body of evidence that cetaceans may possess highly developed cognitive abilities that we are simply unable to detect and/or measure. It is conceivable (to some) that these creatures may actually be the pinnacle of intellectual evolution on the planet. Of course, this directly conflicts with most religious dogmas that place humans at the apex of the animal kingdom. But, that's another topic entirely...

So, continue to debate the pros and cons of killing whales based on any criteria you choose. Even if the numbers show it to be completely feasible, there will still be an incalculable loss.
 
cyklon_300:
There is some body of evidence that cetaceans may possess highly developed cognitive abilities that we are simply unable to detect and/or measure. It is conceivable (to some) that these creatures may actually be the pinnacle of intellectual evolution on the planet.
I have heard this view several times. Do you have any links to "some body of evidence"? If: "we are simply unable to detect and/or measure", I'm very curious as to the basis for such evidence and would love to see it.
I did find one source that seems to address the topic:
http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Myths/br-be-an.htm
Another cited reason would appear to be social behaviour and language skills. There doesn't appear to be evidence supporting a whales superiority in these areas though, or maybe I just can't find it. In fact there are compelling reasons to believe that this is just a myth. An interesting paper on the topic of language can be read here:
http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/rolelang.htm
 
catherine96821:
You just keep driving your point and I notice you all did not seem too upset about the human being that almost was harpooned quite intentionally by the Japanese whaler.
catherine96821:
and not have much compassion left over for the person who was almost murdered.
These kind of personal attacks might carry more weight if they were based in facts. I have been researching your claims of what happened (which you should maybe have done yourself!) and according to the Greenpeace Expedition leader Shane Rattenbury it went like this:

Shane Rattenbury:
"We're refining our techniques. This wall of water we're using, where we spray the water into the air in front of the harpooner, is working well," he said.
"But then yesterday, at one stage, the pump that provides that wall of water ran out of fuel.
"Before we had a chance to refuel it, the harpooner took his shot and actually fired directly between two inflatable boats, which were not very far apart."
The harpoon did strike a whale, he said.
The whalers have repeatedly claimed that if an accident occurred during the confrontations, protesters hampering harpooners would be to blame.
The full article can be found here:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0106-09.htm

Would you like to retract your accusations of 'intentional' and 'attempted murder' now?
 

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