What to do in the event that...

[drrich2]

I've seen this sort of thing happen on other threads before, & now this one. I think the approach is counter-productive and worth addressing.

Situation: A diver, often fairly new but perhaps not always, posts a question(s) on the forum. Seasoned divers, often critical of the perceived quality of mainstream recreational scuba training today, tell the poster it should've been covered in his basic OW class, he ought to already know, since he doesn't obviously his course was poor, and he should quickly go confront his instructor with what a sorry job the guy's been doing and demand additional corrective training for free.

Has that ever actually happened? What are the odds that it'll happen in the current case? What percentage of the cases do you figure it happens? Most new posters like their instructors, and don't know you.

The message I think it sends to posters is that:

1.) Your course sucked.

2.) Your instructor sucks (and you should go tell him).

3.) Your training was bad, you're ignorant and therefore you suck, too. Plus you paid for a bad course, so you're also a chump.

4.) You're not fit to post here. Go get decently educated first, and don't dare post anything ever again that you ought to already know.

I imagine only a very small percentage of divers remember everything they were taught in their OW course. Most people don't review their basic OW manual before posting on Scuba Board on the grounds asking anything the manual could've answered is wrongful.

I'm sure people could quibble with my paraphrasing, but does much positive ever come out of this?

Richard.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

This is a record - I am questioning two divers who are much more experienced than I am. First Jim, now Bob.

Bob - why would you switch to your buddy's air supply? If we assume that the free-flow started slowly, you should have plenty of air in your tank for a safe ascent. My concern with breathing off your buddy's octo would be inducing a 1st stage free-flow in their gear by doubling the air flow through their setup.

Lynne answered the question before I could, but my advice is that if you haven't experienced what a free-flow can do to your ability to think straight, go down and induce one sometime and see how easily you can make a controlled ascent while you're breathing off a reg in full free-flow. At best, it's distracting. At worst, you won't be able to see or think straight with all noise and bubbles in your face.

I've experienced quite a few free-flows over the years ... never had one induced by two divers sharing air.

For divers who perhaps have little practice at making free-ascents, it's best to do it "by the book", which is to do what you practiced in your training. In this case, that would be a shared-air ascent.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I've seen this sort of thing happen on other threads before, & now this one. I think the approach is counter-productive and worth addressing.

Situation: A diver, often fairly new but perhaps not always, posts a question(s) on the forum. Seasoned divers, often critical of the perceived quality of mainstream recreational scuba training today, tell the poster it should've been covered in his basic OW class, he ought to already know, since he doesn't obviously his course was poor, and he should quickly go confront his instructor with what a sorry job the guy's been doing and demand additional corrective training for free.

Has that ever actually happened? What are the odds that it'll happen in the current case? What percentage of the cases do you figure it happens? Most new posters like their instructors, and don't know you.

The message I think it sends to posters is that:

1.) Your course sucked.

2.) Your instructor sucks (and you should go tell him).

3.) Your training was bad, you're ignorant and therefore you suck, too. Plus you paid for a bad course, so you're also a chump.

4.) You're not fit to post here. Go get decently educated first, and don't dare post anything ever again that you ought to already know.

I imagine only a very small percentage of divers remember everything they were taught in their OW course. Most people don't review their basic OW manual before posting on Scuba Board on the grounds asking anything the manual could've answered is wrongful.

I'm sure people could quibble with my paraphrasing, but does much positive ever come out of this?

Richard.

[soapbox]

It happens, it's predictable ... and fortunately, it's usually only a handful of posters who do this. Unfortunately, they're usually pretty active members.

The OP posted what I consider a valid thread. It could lead to some interesting discussion. Five years ago, it would have. Unfortunately, SB has become increasingly hostile to newer members ... particularly those who are less experienced.

The "do a search" response always bugs me ... there's a couple million posts on here. That's pretty daunting to search through. I wouldn't ... why would I expect someone else to.

Besides, it's more fun to talk than search. So what if the question's been asked before? They all have. If we need to search for everything, then Pete should just disable the ability to post here and expect people to search for answers that have already been provided ... they pretty much cover it all at this point.

People should be allowed to talk ... and ask ... that's why this board was created in the first place.

[/soapbox]

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

You'll be hard pressed to find a situation that a new recreational diver would run into that can't be handled using the skills and procedures taught in a recreational OW class.

Depends on which recreational OW class.

 

[dwhthediver]

By the way, about freeflows ... the simplest thing to do is get on your buddy's backup reg and shut your tank down. That eliminates the noise and confusion. Then make an orderly ascent to the surface.

Depending on circumstances, you may opt to wait a few seconds and slowly turn the tank back on again. Often that will be enough to stop the freeflow. If it doesn't, go for the option I already suggested (surface while sharing air).

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

My first freeflow happened at 101'...not making the surface losing air that fast, just like Bob said, got with my buddy, shut my tank down, and ascended on his alternate, turned it back on for grins at 30 ft...no freeflow, so switched back to my regulator and did a safety stop with my buddy. That is why air share drills after you become certified should be done regularly. I have replaced that regulator with an environmentally sealed one and haven't had a freeflow since, even under the ice.

 

[vinegarbiscuit]

A book I found to be useful was Michael Ange's "Diver Down: Real-World SCUBA Accidents and How to Avoid Them". You can find it on Amazon at Amazon.com: Diver Down: Real-World SCUBA Accidents and How to Avoid Them (9780071445726): Michael Ange: Books: Reviews, Prices & more . It features chapters about diving accidents affecting different people, different pieces of equipment, and in different environments (warm water, cold water, caves, wrecks, etc). The author closes each chapter-specific incident by offering tips on how to mitigate an accident similar to the one just described. I started reading it in preparation for my Rescue course - it was actually really great to discuss some of the incidents with my instructor, as well as the other people taking the course with me.

 

[danvolker]

[soapbox]

It happens, it's predictable ... and fortunately, it's usually only a handful of posters who do this. Unfortunately, they're usually pretty active members.

The OP posted what I consider a valid thread. It could lead to some interesting discussion. Five years ago, it would have. Unfortunately, SB has become increasingly hostile to newer members ... particularly those who are less experienced.

The "do a search" response always bugs me ... there's a couple million posts on here. That's pretty daunting to search through. I wouldn't ... why would I expect someone else to.

Besides, it's more fun to talk than search. So what if the question's been asked before? They all have. If we need to search for everything, then Pete should just disable the ability to post here and expect people to search for answers that have already been provided ... they pretty much cover it all at this point.

People should be allowed to talk ... and ask ... that's why this board was created in the first place.

[/soapbox]

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,
I think the OP has a right to come on here and ask questions, but it appears to me he thinks that HE himself can create a compendium of scuba knowledge essential for new divers.....AND, that with all these "pearls of wisdom" gained from Scubaboard, I think he believes he can bypass further course and actual instruction...
I don't think either is valid for a new diver. He is not a good judge of which ideas are good or bad, he does not know how to "use" each of the ideas, and there is certainly no way he is going to learn things like optimal propulsion or good trim and bouyancy from our suggestions......He needs a good instructor, period.

If he gets this big list of issues from SB, and then goes on to find a really good instructor, AND hits this instructor over the head with 100 of SB's best issues on this.....it may be an excellent result for him ( but I pity the instructor )

Regards,
DanV

 

[Garth]

You cant beat a good mentor I don't care who you are. A mentor might be available more than an instructors and if you find the right one they may have more knowledge than some instructors or they are one. My dive buddies are technical divers and instructors that have the same interests as me and it works.
Before ( to the op) you think a list will help you stop to think about why you need a list.
Grocery lists are there because you can't remember what you need for your refrigerator.
What are you going to put it on a slate?
The only way a list would be usefull would be to start at the top and practice the failures one by one until they are drilled in your head as this I the ONLY way they will save your life in an emergency. People like JimLap or others on here know what they are doing because they do it everyday.
Make a list yes, but practice, dive, practice otherwise it's just a paper that gives a false sense of confidence.

In short: I agree with the OP if he plans to practice all the things he puts on the list that he apparently didn't learn from OW.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

By the way, about freeflows ... the simplest thing to do is get on your buddy's backup reg and shut your tank down. That eliminates the noise and confusion. Then make an orderly ascent to the surface.

Depending on circumstances, you may opt to wait a few seconds and slowly turn the tank back on again. Often that will be enough to stop the freeflow. If it doesn't, go for the option I already suggested (surface while sharing air).

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You comment about using the victim's BC to get bouyant (rather than your own) is better, because if you loose contact it is less likely that the victim will sink to the bottom is something I totally agree with.

However the advice you give for a freeflow (shuting down the "victim's" tank is not something i agree with in the recreational setting, particularly if the diver does not have redundant breathing system.

I don't agree that a freeflow is so disorienting (but it might be for a new diver), however, even if we accept the idea that it is a huge problem, why not just use the octopus and do a normal ascent? Why shut down someone's life support system?

The basic OW diver depends on the inflator working, but your advice is to remove their ability to independently breath and to control their bouyancy...This is a potential deadly situation to a paniced, inexpereinced diver, if they simply loose physical contact with their buddy, The last thing I want is new OW divers shuting off eachother's air underwater during real emergencies!

In my mind, If the freeflow is too distracting, then the diver can breath from their own octopus and ascend as quickly as possible, while accompanied with their buddy incase they run out of air which is not unlikely.

If we compare risk benefit ratio, obviously shutting down someone's life support system during an emergency has some risks, but what are the benefits of this potentially very dangerous proceedure? So no water can get in the tank? So he can fix the reg and do another dive that afternoon with the same tank?

Again my comments are directed at basic OW divers, this thread was started by a person who was not even taught to disconnect the inflator hose from a BC, yet you recommend they shut down the individual's entire life support system?

For me, if i were diving with a buddy (and I had a pony bottle) I would probably appreciate that they shut the valve off, because I have redundancy and it just wouldn't be a big deal for ME (or you I assume), but this is entirely inappropriate for a basic diver.

I know I said this before, but can you imagine explaining to a widow and her kids that you shut their father's air tank off and he had nothing to breath, disabled his bouyancy control system and simpy because he freaked out a little during the rescue and slapped you in your face, knocked off your mask, ripped your regulator out of your mouth causing you to momentarily lose contact with the diver and he just sank super fast.. and by the time you got it together, went down and found him in the current and bad visiility ..he was dead, And you did all this so his tank might not run out on a dive?

If you can't get the freeflow to stop by manipulating the second stage, the two divers should establish phydical contact, the victim can use either one of his regs, begin the ascent, stay together, go at a reasonable pace and IF the victim diver's tank runs out, THEN they can share air for the remainder of the ascent (but this loss of air will occur much closer to the surface).

 

[danvolker]

You comment about using the victim's BC to get bouyant (rather than your own) is better, because if you loose contact it is less likely that the victim will sink to the bottom is something I totally agree with.

However the advice you give for a freeflow (shuting down the "victim's" tank is not something i agree with in the recreational setting, particularly if the diver does not have redundant breathing system.

I don't agree that a freeflow is so disorienting (but it might be for a new diver), however, even if we accept the idea that it is a huge problem, why not just use the octopus and do a normal ascent? Why shut down someone's life support system?

The basic OW diver depends on the inflator working, but your advice is to remove their ability to independently breath and to control their bouyancy...This is a potential deadly situation to a paniced, inexpereinced diver, if they simply loose physical contact with their buddy, The last thing I want is new OW divers shuting off eachother's air underwater during real emergencies!

In my mind, If the freeflow is too distracting, then the diver can breath from their own octopus and ascend as quickly as possible, while accompanied with their buddy incase they run out of air which is not unlikely.

If we compare risk benefit ratio, obviously shutting down someone's life support system during an emergency has some risks, but what are the benefits of this potentially very dangerous proceedure? So no water can get in the tank? So he can fix the reg and do another dive that afternoon with the same tank?

Again my comments are directed at basic OW divers, this thread was started by a person who was not even taught to disconnect the inflator hose from a BC, yet you recommend they shut down the individual's entire life support system?

For me, if i were diving with a buddy (and I had a pony bottle) I would probably appreciate that they shut the valve off, because I have redundancy and it just wouldn't be a big deal for ME (or you I assume), but this is entirely inappropriate for a basic diver.

I know I said this before, but can you imagine explaining to a widow and her kids that you shut their father's air tank off and he had nothing to breath, disabled his bouyancy control system and simpy because he freaked out a little during the rescue and slapped you in your face, knocked off your mask, ripped your regulator out of your mouth causing you to momentarily lose contact with the diver and he just sank super fast.. and by the time you got it together, went down and found him in the current and bad visiility ..he was dead, And you did all this so his tank might not run out on a dive?

If you can't get the freeflow to stop by manipulating the second stage, the two divers should establish phydical contact, the victim can use either one of his regs, begin the ascent, stay together, go at a reasonable pace and IF the victim diver's tank runs out, THEN they can share air for the remainder of the ascent (but this loss of air will occur much closer to the surface).

I agree totally. Good post.

DanV