What to do in the event that...

[MXGratefulDiver]

You comment about using the victim's BC to get bouyant (rather than your own) is better, because if you loose contact it is less likely that the victim will sink to the bottom is something I totally agree with.

However the advice you give for a freeflow (shuting down the "victim's" tank is not something i agree with in the recreational setting, particularly if the diver does not have redundant breathing system.

I don't agree that a freeflow is so disorienting (but it might be for a new diver), however, even if we accept the idea that it is a huge problem, why not just use the octopus and do a normal ascent? Why shut down someone's life support system?

The basic OW diver depends on the inflator working, but your advice is to remove their ability to independently breath and to control their bouyancy...This is a potential deadly situation to a paniced, inexpereinced diver, if they simply loose physical contact with their buddy, The last thing I want is new OW divers shuting off eachother's air underwater during real emergencies!

In my mind, If the freeflow is too distracting, then the diver can breath from their own octopus and ascend as quickly as possible, while accompanied with their buddy incase they run out of air which is not unlikely.

If we compare risk benefit ratio, obviously shutting down someone's life support system during an emergency has some risks, but what are the benefits of this potentially very dangerous proceedure? So no water can get in the tank? So he can fix the reg and do another dive that afternoon with the same tank?

Again my comments are directed at basic OW divers, this thread was started by a person who was not even taught to disconnect the inflator hose from a BC, yet you recommend they shut down the individual's entire life support system?

For me, if i were diving with a buddy (and I had a pony bottle) I would probably appreciate that they shut the valve off, because I have redundancy and it just wouldn't be a big deal for ME (or you I assume), but this is entirely inappropriate for a basic diver.

I know I said this before, but can you imagine explaining to a widow and her kids that you shut their father's air tank off and he had nothing to breath, disabled his bouyancy control system and simpy because he freaked out a little during the rescue and slapped you in your face, knocked off your mask, ripped your regulator out of your mouth causing you to momentarily lose contact with the diver and he just sank super fast.. and by the time you got it together, went down and found him in the current and bad visiility ..he was dead, And you did all this so his tank might not run out on a dive?

If you can't get the freeflow to stop by manipulating the second stage, the two divers should establish phydical contact, the victim can use either one of his regs, begin the ascent, stay together, go at a reasonable pace and IF the victim diver's tank runs out, THEN they can share air for the remainder of the ascent (but this loss of air will occur much closer to the surface).

In your OW class, do you train your divers how to do an air share ascent? You should be. So they should know ... coming out of OW ... how to manage an ascent using this procedure.

You ask why not breathe off the octopus? Well, here's why ...

- Breathing off the octopus does not remove the distraction of a freeflow. It only removes it from directly in front of your face.

- A freeflowing regulator will empty your cylinder in a hurry ... possibly faster than you can ... or should ... ascend to the surface.

- By turning off the tank valve, you can in many cases relieve the source of the freeflow by giving the reg a chance to "warm up" ... as an instructor, I'm fairly certain you know what happens inside a regulator when a free-flow is occurring ... it gets very cold. Often the reason for the freeflow is the formation of ice crystals on moving parts. Removing the pressure for a few seconds can often relieve this problem ... which is why I also suggested waiting for a while and then turning it back on again (you conveniently ignored that part of my statement, I notice).

- By turning off the tank valve, you are preserving the remaining gas in that cylinder in the event that something unforeseen occurs that requires you to use it before you reach the surface. By allowing the freeflow to continue, you're dumping all that gas out into the water, where you can no longer use it.

You keep making reference to the diver having nothing to breathe ... uh, excuse me ... the diver is breathing off his buddy's air tank. Under no circumstances should a diver turn off a person's tank unless they have another breathing source available ... nor did I suggest any such thing. I also suggested waiting a few seconds and turning the air source back on again prior to beginning the ascent. That may ... and often does ... resolve the problem, so that both divers can then make an orderly ascent on their own equipment. Again, you ignored that part of my statement in your rush to make an argument.

Your reference to the OOA diver sinking is also without merit ... they're ascending ... do you, as an instructor, understand what happens to air as you ascend? In fact, the OOA diver would have to be dumping air from their BCD as they ascend in order to control their rate of ascent. Furthermore, we aren't talking about an unconscious diver here ... if they were to seperate, both divers have the ability to take action to remedy that problem right away by swimming toward each other, or as a last resort by dumping weights ... they were supposed to have learned those skills in OW too.

If they follow their training ... the training that you, as an instructor, were supposed to provide ... then by turning off the freeflowing tank and ascending while sharing air they are doing this ascent exactly as they were trained to do, with the advantages and contingencies I described above.

Sure, your method will work ... but my method gives the divers more options for a succesful outcome ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob,
I think the OP has a right to come on here and ask questions, but it appears to me he thinks that HE himself can create a compendium of scuba knowledge essential for new divers.....AND, that with all these "pearls of wisdom" gained from Scubaboard, I think he believes he can bypass further course and actual instruction...
I don't think either is valid for a new diver. He is not a good judge of which ideas are good or bad, he does not know how to "use" each of the ideas, and there is certainly no way he is going to learn things like optimal propulsion or good trim and bouyancy from our suggestions......He needs a good instructor, period.

If he gets this big list of issues from SB, and then goes on to find a really good instructor, AND hits this instructor over the head with 100 of SB's best issues on this.....it may be an excellent result for him ( but I pity the instructor )

Regards,
DanV

I think he was just trying to create a useful conversation. Sure, he'll get some differences of opinion ... as has already been demonstrated. And by giving people the opportunity to discuss those differences, he will be better prepared to make his own decisions.

I see that as a good thing ... diving is as much about having the ability to understand the "why" behind problem solving as it is the "what" ... and that's often missing from classroom curriculum. This is the service a place like ScubaBoard can provide to all divers ... but particularly to newer ones who don't yet have the advantage of personal experience to put context around what they were told to do.

As an instructor, I would personally welcome a student who comes to class with a lot of questions ... we both might learn something ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

1st time I ever had a complete freeflow like this was on a Hole In the Wall dive in the early 90's....I was using an old US Divers reg, a diaphram model, and the diaphram let go..
...I was about 8 minutes into a dive about 145 feed deep, lining up on a big hogsnapper with my gun. None of the other spearfisherman were near enough to be relevant. Air began blasting through the mouthpiece.. I mean blasting.
But I could still breathe, and it was an easy decision wihout any stress, to just begin a rapid ascent, and with luck, I might have some air for the entire trip upward, and if not, it would still be much easier than a free ascent with no air from 145. The tank lasted till about 20 feet from the surface, and that left an incredibly simple free ascent of only 20 feet.

The blasting of the air through the mouthpiece is really NOT that disorienting. The "trauma" is that you know your dive is over, and you have to surface.

It is much easier than a complete OOA failure, even for a novice, because they can still breathe and have a few seconds at least, maybe a half a minute, to get their thoughts together and embark on solving the issue ( which if not near a buddy, means heading up instantly, but still thinking and planing while they can still breate.).

Bob, you are known to come out with awesome advice constantly on this board, and I do believe you to be an ideal instructor from what I know of you. On the issue of turning the gas off for a novice diver that is in an emergency ascent due to a freeflow like this....it may well be agency policy.....but it would concern me that if the novice was so freaked out that they could not breathe or concentrate ( just because the air was blasting out so fast) that they may be in a full blown panic mode.....this means they were not YOUR student, because your students would not be panicking like this.....it means they are a very underskilled diver, maybe even a Never-Ever, and if they are that freaked, a buddy breathing scenario should be attempted, but I WOULD want them to have access to their own remaining air supply just in case they somehow bolted away from you....I just dont see the "quieting value" of turning off the valve....I think that having air available would be more comforting, than having things quiet.
I am NOT an instructor, and I would not normally try to make suggestions about how to deal with a novice diver......I imagine you have thought alot about this....Do you really feel the freeflow is all that disorienting?

Regards,
DanV

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

1st time I ever had a complete freeflow like this was on a Hole In the Wall dive in the early 90's....I was using an old US Divers reg, a diaphram model, and the diaphram let go..
...I was about 8 minutes into a dive about 145 feed deep, lining up on a big hogsnapper with my gun. None of the other spearfisherman were near enough to be relevant. Air began blasting through the mouthpiece.. I mean blasting.
But I could still breathe, and it was an easy decision wihout any stress, to just begin a rapid ascent, and with luck, I might have some air for the entire trip upward, and if not, it would still be much easier than a free ascent with no air from 145. The tank lasted till about 20 feet from the surface, and that left an incredibly simple free ascent of only 20 feet.

The blasting of the air through the mouthpiece is really NOT that disorienting. The "trauma" is that you know your dive is over, and you have to surface.

It is much easier than a complete OOA failure, even for a novice, because they can still breathe and have a few seconds at least, maybe a half a minute, to get their thoughts together and embark on solving the issue ( which if not near a buddy, means heading up instantly, but still thinking and planing while they can still breate.).

Bob, you are known to come out with awesome advice constantly on this board, and I do believe you to be an ideal instructor from what I know of you. On the issue of turning the gas off for a novice diver that is in an emergency ascent due to a freeflow like this....it may well be agency policy.....but it would concern me that if the novice was so freaked out that they could not breathe or concentrate ( just because the air was blasting out so fast) that they may be in a full blown panic mode.....this means they were not YOUR student, because your students would not be panicking like this.....it means they are a very underskilled diver, maybe even a Never-Ever, and if they are that freaked, a buddy breathing scenario should be attempted, but I WOULD want them to have access to their own remaining air supply just in case they somehow bolted away from you....I just dont see the "quieting value" of turning off the valve....I think that having air available would be more comforting, than having things quiet.
I am NOT an instructor, and I would not normally try to make suggestions about how to deal with a novice diver......I imagine you have thought alot about this....Do you really feel the freeflow is all that disorienting?

Regards,
DanV

The situation is very different for a skilled, experienced diver than for a novice in that the former has developed the ability to "compartmentalize" problems, prioritizing which ones to solve first. The novice hasn't yet developed that abilitty. So yes, I do believe the disorientation makes a controlled ascent far more difficult. If it's necessary, that's one thing ... if it's not necessary, then making a shared-air ascent in more orderly conditions (that the diver is more used to) is preferable.

In the situation you described above you were essentially solo diving without a redundant air source ... so that reduces your options. You took the only option available to you.

Question ... how long did it take you to ascend from 145 feet to 20 feet, where your tank ran out of air?

Question #2 ... do you think having a novice diver run completely out of air at 20 feet is preferable to having him and his buddy share air all the way to the surface? I don't.

When a novice diver runs out of air completely, the chances of them forgetting to maintain an open airway are pretty high ... and it's quite easy for them to bolt to the surface while holding their breath, which can have extremely unhealthy consequences. I'd far rather have them making an orderly ascent with their buddy than take that risk.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[flots am]

. . . lots of good stuff deleted. . .
I know I said this before, but can you imagine explaining to a widow and her kids that you shut their father's air tank off and he had nothing to breath, disabled his bouyancy control system and simpy because he freaked out a little during the rescue and slapped you in your face, knocked off your mask, ripped your regulator out of your mouth causing you to momentarily lose contact with the diver and he just sank super fast.. and by the time you got it together, went down and found him in the current and bad visiility ..he was dead, And you did all this so his tank might not run out on a dive?

That's exactly why OW training doesn't cover things like turning off the tank underwater to stop a freeflow. When "simple and reliable" works fine, there's no reason to screw around with "potentially dangerous".

Lots of people here dump on OW training, but even the most lax training standards of any recreational agency are actually safe and relaible if actually followed.

In fact, I wouldn't even mention to a new OW student that the possibility of turning off a tank under water even exists. It's simply not necessary or appropriate for the level of training they've had or the conditions they should be diving in and will only confuse things in case of an emergency.

One procedure that works nearly 100% of the time is much safer and much more useful than a bunch of options that the diver doesnt' fully understand, really isn't sure about and almost certainly hasn't practiced.

flots.

 

[TSandM]

Well, I can speak from my personal experience -- I had about 70 dives or so when I had my first freeflow, and I found it incredibly disorienting. The reg that was freeflowing was my backup reg, so the bubbles were all around my face, and I could barely make out my buddies. The noise was horrendous. I got a little anxious, and it affected my breathing, so my buoyancy control went to pot. I was air-sharing with my instructor, and we managed to do a semi-controlled ascent, but it wasn't well done and could have been much worse.

If somebody had just shut the danged tank off, the noise would have gone away, and I would have been able to see again. Air-sharing, at that point, was very familiar territory, and an air-sharing ascent would have been simple.

Although the idea of somebody with six or seven dives turning off his equally inexperienced buddy's gas is unnerving, the image of the two of them trying to initiate an air-share halfway through a very nervous ascent in a cloud of bubbles almost worries me more.

 

[danvolker]

The situation is very different for a skilled, experienced diver than for a novice in that the former has developed the ability to "compartmentalize" problems, prioritizing which ones to solve first. The novice hasn't yet developed that abilitty. So yes, I do believe the disorientation makes a controlled ascent far more difficult. If it's necessary, that's one thing ... if it's not necessary, then making a shared-air ascent in more orderly conditions (that the diver is more used to) is preferable.

In the situation you described above you were essentially solo diving without a redundant air source ... so that reduces your options. You took the only option available to you.

Question ... how long did it take you to ascend from 145 feet to 20 feet, where your tank ran out of air?

I am guessing ascent speed was about 80 to 90 feet per minute...about the speed I swim down....in this case, I just wanted to get nearer the surface before getting to zero air...I was not even remotely concerned with dcs issues, by the priorities in this scenario.

Question #2 ... do you think having a novice diver run completely out of air at 20 feet is preferable to having him and his buddy share air all the way to the surface? I don't.

Absolutely not! Hopefully nothing I said indicated this. I want the air share to begin with buddy the moment this occurs. If they were deep, and novice, then they should be doing a 60 or 70 foot per minute ascent, if the donating diver is low on air also....If the donating diver has lots of air, and both remain calm, then a nice leisurely 30 foot per minute ascent, and if plenty of reserve exists at 15 feet, then a stop as well. If little reserve exists at 15 feet..then no stop. Big issue with 2 new divers--even if they do all of this correctly, it is more than likely that the diver that had the freeflow and is now breathing the shared air, is hoovering massively. Any idea of 2000 psi or 1500 psi lasting a long time from 90 feet could go way out of the window with one or both now in a maximum emergency breathing mode. So this is my thinking on ascent speed and planning....if they are good and calm enough to share air with heart rates still at 70 beats per minute or lower, they should be doing the slow ascent...if they are at 140 bpm and climbing, they need to be ascending at a good pace.

When a novice diver runs out of air completely, the chances of them forgetting to maintain an open airway are pretty high ... and it's quite easy for them to bolt to the surface while holding their breath, which can have extremely unhealthy consequences. I'd far rather have them making an orderly ascent with their buddy than take that risk.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I am on the same page with you here ! Buddy breathing is how I would want this to be handled....

I would have wanted them both to have had training in the CESA and practice at it, for the occiasions when stupidity had separated them from each other, and an emergency scenario left one on his own.

As in my example, as you pointed out in my spearfishing dive with reg failure, even though with buddies, I had the buddy system break down, as the closest was probably 60 feet away and swimming away from me at ther same time.
This was before WKPP and DIR for me..it was back in the Frank Hammett and Guerilla Diver days..Back when men were men, and fear was a lispy companion for the common man

Regards,
DanV

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In fact, I wouldn't even mention to a new OW student that the possibility of turning off a tank under water even exists. It's simply not necessary or appropriate for the level of training they've had or the conditions they should be diving in and will only confuse things in case of an emergency.

I see this argument made about a lot of things I've found OW students completely capable of learning ... gas management and buddy breathing among them.

I have found since I started teaching that OW students are capable of learning and understanding a great deal more than a lot of people give them credit for. You just have to teach it in a way that gives them a fundamental understanding of why it's important, and under what circumstances it's appropriate.

Scuba diving is all about good decision making ... in many ways, making good decisions is more important to diving safety than having good skills. One cannot make good decisions in the absense of information. It is for that reason that I will not withold information from my students. I will, when appropriate, tell them that they're not yet ready to do certain things ... and that is always followed up by why I think so. But in scuba diving, what you don't know can hurt you ... and I prefer to train people to know what their options are and when it's appropriate to consider them.

Then again, I won't just run a student through a "checklist", pat them on the back and hand them a C-card either ... they're either trained to my satisfaction or they don't get the card. A poorly trained diver is unlikely to turn a bad situation into a good outcome no matter what you tell them to do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

Well, I can speak from my personal experience -- I had about 70 dives or so when I had my first freeflow, and I found it incredibly disorienting. The reg that was freeflowing was my backup reg, so the bubbles were all around my face, and I could barely make out my buddies. The noise was horrendous. I got a little anxious, and it affected my breathing, so my buoyancy control went to pot. I was air-sharing with my instructor, and we managed to do a semi-controlled ascent, but it wasn't well done and could have been much worse.

If somebody had just shut the danged tank off, the noise would have gone away, and I would have been able to see again. Air-sharing, at that point, was very familiar territory, and an air-sharing ascent would have been simple.

Although the idea of somebody with six or seven dives turning off his equally inexperienced buddy's gas is unnerving, the image of the two of them trying to initiate an air-share halfway through a very nervous ascent in a cloud of bubbles almost worries me more.

Hi Lynne,
I think in the case of the 1st freeflow I had, I was so pissed at not being able to get the hogsnapper, the sound, or the bubbles and reduced vision were not bothering me....like.........your tooth hurts, so Peter punches you in the shoulder, hard, so you will think about that instead of your tooth .

I have to agree, the idea of 2 novice divers having to deal with an issue like this is scary.

Regards,
DanV

 

[dumpsterDiver]

In your OW class, do you train your divers how to do an air share ascent? You should be. So they should know ... coming out of OW ... how to manage an ascent using this procedure.

You ask why not breathe off the octopus? Well, here's why ...

- Breathing off the octopus does not remove the distraction of a freeflow. It only removes it from directly in front of your face.

- A freeflowing regulator will empty your cylinder in a hurry ... possibly faster than you can ... or should ... ascend to the surface.

- By turning off the tank valve, you can in many cases relieve the source of the freeflow by giving the reg a chance to "warm up" ... as an instructor, I'm fairly certain you know what happens inside a regulator when a free-flow is occurring ... it gets very cold. Often the reason for the freeflow is the formation of ice crystals on moving parts. Removing the pressure for a few seconds can often relieve this problem ... which is why I also suggested waiting for a while and then turning it back on again (you conveniently ignored that part of my statement, I notice).

- By turning off the tank valve, you are preserving the remaining gas in that cylinder in the event that something unforeseen occurs that requires you to use it before you reach the surface. By allowing the freeflow to continue, you're dumping all that gas out into the water, where you can no longer use it.

You keep making reference to the diver having nothing to breathe ... uh, excuse me ... the diver is breathing off his buddy's air tank. Under no circumstances should a diver turn off a person's tank unless they have another breathing source available ... nor did I suggest any such thing. I also suggested waiting a few seconds and turning the air source back on again prior to beginning the ascent. That may ... and often does ... resolve the problem, so that both divers can then make an orderly ascent on their own equipment. Again, you ignored that part of my statement in your rush to make an argument.

Your reference to the OOA diver sinking is also without merit ... they're ascending ... do you, as an instructor, understand what happens to air as you ascend? In fact, the OOA diver would have to be dumping air from their BCD as they ascend in order to control their rate of ascent. Furthermore, we aren't talking about an unconscious diver here ... if they were to seperate, both divers have the ability to take action to remedy that problem right away by swimming toward each other, or as a last resort by dumping weights ... they were supposed to have learned those skills in OW too.

If they follow their training ... the training that you, as an instructor, were supposed to provide ... then by turning off the freeflowing tank and ascending while sharing air they are doing this ascent exactly as they were trained to do, with the advantages and contingencies I described above.

Sure, your method will work ... but my method gives the divers more options for a succesful outcome ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks for the detailed response. I think your response has some merit, but I still don't agree. Of course if the victim diver is ascending and he is perfecty neutral and contact is lost, he should arrive at the surface due to expanding air in the BC/suit, but we know that people could dump excess air in an emergency, especially dump too much to arrest an ascent that got out of control and it is no stretch to envision a diver ending up with too little air in their BC, no way to inflate and sinking alone with their air off.

As I think about your description of turning the air off for a short time to allow the first stage to warm up, there may be some merit in that, IF the divers are comfortable, stationary on a hard bottom and have establsihed good contact. In this situation, the victim can breath from the donor octopus and it is unlikley that the victim can get away from the donor in this situation. Still not in 100% agreement that this is good practice for OW novices..

However, the situation of basic Ow divers trying to manage an ascent with one tank off, still seems like a really bad idea, for the reasons i describe.

LAstly, you won't come off your position that a freeflowing regulator is a terrible distraction. When i was a dive instructor, i harassed my students by pressing their purge and rattling their heads in the pool. If I felt that any of them were overly distracted by this sudden freeflow, i would not certify them. But to be honest, all my students mastered this skill in my classes. Breathing from a freeflowing regulator is a critical skill in my mind.