When is a skill "mastered"?

[The Chairman]

No, I don't see a difference.

You can't argue with that. You've defined a mountain to include a molehill and no amount of reasoning will change your mind. You just can't reason with unreasonable people.

According to your line of reasoning, since "neutral buoyancy" is not defined as a skill by PADI, it simply can't be taught. Forget that it's an implied skill and is used for hovering among other skills. By extension, every PADI instructor must have their students floating on the surface, firmly on the bottom or risk censure. Shenanigans.

Sure, PADI is more restrictive when it comes to adding skills. This is a response to abuses in the past by a relatively few instructors bent on teaching a Navy Diver's class as OW. But I contend that neutral buoyancy is not only allowed by PADI HQ, but it's implied as the ultimate goal in their OW class. Do they put enough emphasis on it? If they did they would not need a "Peak Performance Buoyancy" specialty. No, just like most agencies they treat it almost as an after thought. Will they put enough emphasis on it when they roll out the new standards? That remains to be seen and I am sure that t a few could never, ever be satisfied. But your claim that a PADI instructor can not require a student to clear their mask while neutrally buoyant is simply ludicrous. I know too many PADI instructors who currently require this as a condition for certification. None of them... NONE OF THEM... have ever had PADI ask them to stop teaching in this manner, nor have they been censured for it. None, nada and squat. Like many theories, your theory implodes with just a little does of reality.

 

[DCBC]

Sure, PADI is more restrictive when it comes to adding skills. This is a response to abuses in the past by a relatively few instructors bent on teaching a Navy Diver's class as OW.

Ah, another dig... Pete if you really understood what was actually involved in the training of a Navy Diver, you would not go there even jokingly...

FYI, I emphasize buoyancy in my class and divers must be competent mid-water as a condition for certification. If you want to pull someones leg about the lack of good Student buoyancy skills, speak to the many Instructors who certify divers that crash into the bottom during OW training and hold to the philosophy that an OW card is a license to learn (while at the same time signing off their students as competent to dive unsupervised)...

 

[boulderjohn]

But your claim that a PADI instructor can not require a student to clear their mask while neutrally buoyant is simply ludicrous. I know too many PADI instructors who currently require this as a condition for certification. None of them... NONE OF THEM... have ever had PADI ask them to stop teaching in this manner, nor have they been censured for it. None, nada and squat. Like many theories, your theory implodes with just a little does of reality.

And to repeat for the umpteenth time....

The 2011 article in the official PADI professional journal that goes out to all instructors included a statement inserted by a PADI official that if skills are initially taught on the knees, students should be made to do them while neutrally buoyant as soon as possible, preferably within the same instructional session.

In the Instructor to Instructor forum you were given the contact information of a PADI official who said that all skills in the later parts of the CW sessions should be done in mid water. He also said that if he were conducting an IE, he would prefer that prospective instructors demonstrated skills while neutrally buoyant. He gave me permission to give his contact information there so people could verify that.
​

BTW, PADI certifies just under a million divers annually around the world. What kind of inventory of manuals, DVDs, etc. do you think they have on hand? How long do you think it takes to use up that supply? How long to you think it takes them to make a new supply in all the different languages showing a different approach? The Undersea Journal content is usually determined a year ahead of time. Sometime after the 2011 article was published, PADI apparently decided to make alterations in its program. They announced that those changes were coming this past winter, about 1.5 years after the article was published. that seems pretty darn fast to me.

Also BTW, it is interesting that clearing the mask while neutrally buoyant is used as an example for this discussion. The article mentioned has a picture of someone clearing the mask while neutrally buoyant as an example of doing skills while buoyant. Sadly, they left out the clarifying caption that went with it. In case you are interested, I am the diver clearing my mask in that picture.

 

[DCBC]

...The 2011 article in the official PADI professional journal that goes out to all instructors included a statement inserted by a PADI official that if skills are initially taught on the knees, students should be made to do them while neutrally buoyant as soon as possible, preferably within the same instructional session.

John, I don't think that anyone is doubting that this change may eventually be reflected in the Standards. I think the point being made is that PADI has yet to reflect any changes in the Standards at this point in-time. If PADI is serious about their Instructors teaching to the Standards, it's reasonable to believe that Instructors are to follow whatever Standards are most current. Any article doesn't equate to a Standards change (no mater who the Author is).

I've been advised of Standards changes from a number of certification Agencies over the years (including PADI). It's an easy matter to deal with; Instructors can receive an update from PADI by mail outlining the change. It may take some time to be reflected in the requisite materials, but they are in-affect once Instructors have been officially notified. To think that an Journal article equates to official notification is a ridiculous notion.

 

[The Chairman]

Ah, another dig... Pete if you really understood what was actually involved in the training of a Navy Diver, you would not go there even jokingly...

It was not meant as a dig and I have no idea if you were a Navy diver or not. Since I lived by a Navy Base in Orlando Fl growing up, I can only comment on what I saw and put that into a perspective that is unique to me. Watching Scuba students doing push-ups in full kit soured me from pursuing getting certified in Scuba for years. When I finally took a class, one of my stipulations was that I would not be doing push-ups.

FYI, I emphasize buoyancy in my class and divers must be competent mid-water as a condition for certification. If you want to pull someones leg about the lack of good Student buoyancy skills, speak to the many Instructors who certify divers that crash into the bottom during OW training and hold to the philosophy that an OW card is a license to learn (while at the same time signing off their students as competent to dive unsupervised)...

That's an instructor competency issue that appalls me when I see it. However, since I see all the agencies producing instructors that do this I don't see it as agency specific per se. Neutral buoyancy is a skill that is at least implied in every agency's course.

 

[oldschoolto]

You see the dropping of standards in "EVERY" sport or training as you add to the amount of people that can do it... I would tell sky-diving students halfway through their first jump course.... " I think you should forget about jumping and take up BOWLING " ... When more people want to learn, More people are given Instructor ratings.... The bar is lowered.... And lowered.... Till you get the pile of crap that we have today... BUT, People are making money on it... Very few do it for the love of the sport.....

You take the good with the bad...

Jim....

Oh... And a skill is Mastered when you do it with out thinking about it ....

 

[boulderjohn]

John, I don't think that anyone is doubting that this change may eventually be reflected in the Standards. I think the point being made is that PADI has yet to reflect any changes in the Standards at this point in-time. ....

Correct, they have not changed the standards yet, but the point was that what PADI was officially saying is true as the standards are currently written.

As I said before, Andy needs to write to PADI to tell them that their understanding of their own standards is incorrect, and they need to adopt his interpretation instead of theirs.

 

[The Chairman]

As I said before, Andy needs to write to PADI to tell them that their understanding of their own standards is incorrect, and they need to adopt his interpretation instead of theirs.

Tru dat!

 

[Pullmyfinger]

You see the dropping of standards in "EVERY" sport or training as you add to the amount of people that can do it... I would tell sky-diving students halfway through their first jump course.... " I think you should forget about jumping and take up BOWLING " ... When more people want to learn, More people are given Instructor ratings.... The bar is lowered.... And lowered.... Till you get the pile of crap that we have today... BUT, People are making money on it... Very few do it for the love of the sport.....

You take the good with the bad...

Jim....

Oh... And a skill is Mastered when you do it with out thinking about it ....

True, true, and true.
Many appear to be mostly interested in protecting their own rice bowl.

When things become easier, you get more bodies to feed the machine.

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[DevonDiver]

The 2011 article in the official PADI professional journal that goes out to all instructors included a statement inserted by a PADI official that if skills are initially taught on the knees, students should be made to do them while neutrally buoyant as soon as possible, preferably within the same instructional session....., PADI certifies just under a million divers annually around the world. What kind of inventory of manuals, DVDs, etc. do you think they have on hand? How long do you think it takes to use up that supply?

1) Article appears in 2011. It is an editorial piece - it does not feature as a standards amendment in the 'Training Bulletin' section, where formal changes to written standards are announced. It could have done.

2) Since article was published, two further revisions of the Instructor Manual have been released (2012 and 2013). Neither edition features any formal standards changes, or any other communication, reflecting an amendment to how OW skills could be taught or assessed in neutral buoyancy.

3) Instructor manual has been primarily available as electronic download via PADI account for dive pros for several years. This ensures PADI has no 'inventory' issues to deal with, nor any untoward delay in making desired changes or amendments to standards.

4) Plenty of other standards and procedures amendments have been made to PADI courses since the 2011 'neutral buoyancy' article. The transition to neutral buoyancy has never been reflected in a standard for teaching or assessment.

According to your line of reasoning, since "neutral buoyancy" is not defined as a skill by PADI, it simply can't be taught. Forget that it's an implied skill and is used for hovering among other skills. By extension, every PADI instructor must have their students floating on the surface, firmly on the bottom or risk censure.

If you aren't bothering to accurately read my posts, or cannot remember an issue beyond one page of discussion, there really is little point bothering to converse.

I've already pointed out that neutral buoyancy IS a skill. That skill is introduced in CW#4. PADI instructors are explicitly instructed NOT to introduce skills other than in the prescribed order of training.

I also quoted sections of the Instructor Manual that were evidence of those policies. I also quoted sections of the 'Guide To Teaching' the explicitly described the conduct of skills "sitting or kneeling"... and the skill of 'hovering'; which is also called "neutral buoyancy".

Do I keep having to repeat myself? Just read the books Pete... you're a qualified instructor... you SHOULD be familiar with them..

You (Pete) keep harping on about 'what actually happens in reality'. The discussion isn't about 'reality' - it is about the "definition of mastery". It is about the formal philosophy and standards that an organization (PADI) has to define that end-state.

That some, a small few, instructors interpret/amend/alter/exceed those standards (without censer) is IRRELEVANT. The standards remain - and they are as described in the appropriate documentation.

]Andy needs to write to PADI to tell them that their understanding of their own standards is incorrect, and they need to adopt his interpretation instead of theirs.

I ask again, for the umpteenth time... what "misunderstanding" exists...

I'm gonna keep posting that, everytime some PADI apologist wants to blame instructors for 'misunderstanding' that PADI didn't actually ever want them teaching from their knees... it's too damned funny...

---------- Post added May 30th, 2013 at 12:32 PM ----------

NetDoc knows that on Instructor Exam (IE) he took a 'Standards Exam'.

That exam tests a potential instructors' ability to reference the relevant instructor manual and source the correct written standard for a range of hypothetical training-related questions.

It does not test an instructor's ability to 'interpret' PADI standards.

ZERO of the exam questions are answered by "call my friend at PADI HQ get an 'off-the-books' permission to do what I want, because I can't find permission or excuse to do it in the standards". "True dat..."

As it stands, those arguing against the facts and materials I have provided have yet to provide ONE QUOTE, ONE DEFINITION or ONE SOURCE that supports what they claim to be true. PADI have never introduced such standards, nor have they ever communicated formal standards direction to instructors in that regards. Not once, not ever.

What may exist as a PADI HQ 'internal memorandum' to 'encourage' instructors is NOT a formal standard to direct them. What PADI may discuss via inter-office email or coffee-break chat, is NOT reflected in the annually updated Instructor Manual, nor has it been communicated via the Training Bulletin in UJ.

Thus... we can see that this supposed 'definition of mastery' has never existed in PADI standards. It does not exist now.

Yes, PADI have hinted at it. Despite an article published in 2011, PADI have yet to reflect those sentiments in any formal communication of standards. I ask why?