Why are certifications valid forever?

[TMHeimer]

TN-Steve, I'm surprised you were surprised. Think about the stuff that expires -- driver licenses, fishing licenses, car inspections (except in Western Canada--I miss that), scallop licenses (here). Probably a lot more I can't think of. Renewal is usually just a matter of PAYING MONEY. I have to renew my passport soon--nothing to do with safety like in diving. We're just so lucky that the govt. leaves us alone, knock wood. Besides, how would you renew a cert. card anyway-- pass a Scuba Review class to show an instructor you still can do the 20 or so OW skills? Can you imagine how many people would have to do that, the pool time, etc.? I know in Illinois drivers over 85 must take a test each year--says the 91 year old freind I know who drives from Ill. to Destin on the Gulf each year in one day. Of course there aren't all that many drivers alive at that age.

DMs/Instructors at our shop must renew (take) EFR or other CPR every 2 years (unless they teach it--but then you'd have to renew your ERF Instr. Cert. with PADI--and PAY MONEY). But that involves being able to assist a student victim/patient. If I were still a new OW diver I would be offended to have to prove myself over and over. If I were rusty I'd take the refresher course anyway. If my car needed work to run safely I'd take it in, regardless of yearly "inspections". But these things involve common sense.

 

[lemke]

A C-card is a "license" to drown... it's up to you to keep yourself alive.

 

[Nemrod]

Hey Gang,

I'm very new to this, but I'm surprised that a c-card is basically valid forever, and really can't be revoked once it's issued. It would, to my way of thinking, make sense that they be issued for "X" amount of time (say 5 years), and at the end of that 5 years you would have to submit some proof of "Y" number of dives, or "Z" amount of continuing education, ie a more advanced cert.

Now I know that IF there were such a system, there would probably be a lot of 'Pencil Whipped' (as we used to say in the Army) log entries submitted, but that's the nature of almost any system. Just because it isn't fraud proof doesn't make it invalid.

I know that the certifications I hold in other fields (none of which have life / death consequences like diving) require me to periodically retest, show continuing ed, or otherwise show that steps have been taken to maintain the skills.

I guess that what I'm looking for is the logic behind the 'certified for life' model.

Thanks,

Steve

You realize that a SCUBA certification is not a legal document or license. Even a pilots license, which is, is given for life or until revoked (due to doing something bad) or surrendered. Now, the Medical that goes with it that allows one to exercise the privileges of a pilot do expire depending upon class at specific intervals.

Yeah, I would be for an annual Medical past 40 for Solo and Instructor, DM and Technical and a biannual Medical for under 40 to be required for SCUBA and I would want it to be really tough to pass. No meds, on BMI, no ailments, yeah, that would thin the heard.

I would like to see a physical fitness test, oh, swim a mile in under 30 minutes with no aids, hold breath and free dive minimum of 60 feet, tread water or self rescue for one hour.

Oh, and lets throw in First Aid/First Responder certification while we are at it every two years.

And, a buoyancy and sensitive environment certification requirement for any park or protected area, re-test before each trip.

Is that what you really want?

N

 

[BRT]

The market wouldn't tolerate it without government intervention.

The justification for government involvement is pretty iffy because the risk to others posed by an incompetent diver has proven to be pretty low — unlike an incompetent driver using public roads or pilots flying over public and private property. The risk posed by out of control children in a car is far higher than a diver that has not been in the water for 10 years. Should we license vehicle passengers?

You notice that we don't make vehicle drivers have ongoing education or proof of driving hours.

 

[TMHeimer]

You notice that we don't make vehicle drivers have ongoing education or proof of driving hours.

Same with teachers (although I know in NY State that teachers must get their Masters within 5 years of starting to teach, unless that's changed). Teaching Certs. don't expire. I'm not sure if they can actually be revoked, but if so it would have to be for something heinous. Teachers do participate in inservice days throughout the school year--these are part of the school year/contract. And teachers at times get evaluated by Administration. But you can't lose your Cert. for being a below average ability teacher. In rare cases maybe your job.

 

[NAM001]

A diving cert is a proof of training not profiecency. A drivers licence is the opposite to some point.
The dive cert is like that high school deploma.

 

[spectrum]

1) In the US it's essentially a qualification to patronize the industry. Once you are deemed to have qualified they aren't about to harass the customers.

2) If you have an accident regardless of cause the risk is pretty much confined to you. It's not like a pilot taking others down or crashing into someone's place.

3) Once trained a minimal amount of activity can keep you reasonably qualified to make dives at the level you have developed to.

4) Scuba diving is amenable to incremental self learning. Consider driving, my present vehicle requires the use of features not in the scope of my training 39 years ago. Aside from managing senior issues an auto driver licenses is for life, at least here in Maine. In the case of driving consider the harm you can easily inflict.

5) As for technical diving I think mandating continuity in experience is a good first step. Consider that it is often praciced on private property and if a rescue is needed the risk to others is significant.

Pete

 

[84CJ7]

I despise "certifications" as two divers can frequently both pass the same class with totally different levels of competency, though that varies by agency and the level of class. There are a lot of instructors selling cards, not skills.
They are however the best we have and we will need them so long as we live in a nanny state with a complete bass ackwards legal system for law suits. Everyone should have the right to be stupid and kill themselves without it being someone elses fault or obligation to rescue them.

I actually got PADI advanced diver certified just to have a "key" to do the diving I wanted. Its up to me to actually learn and perfect the skills and not just parrot them well enough to slide through a class.

I do laugh at the people that put real stock in log books. It takes nothing for a mutually beneficial "logging" of a few dozen if not a few hundred dives with a single dive buddy friend all from the comfort of your living room, and they would be just as validated as a real dive with all the details filled in and a signature and cert number on the bottom. Who is to say you don't always go diving with the same buddy, many people do and the dives would all match between your two books.
If I want to know what someones skill level is I dive with them and never ask for their certs or logs, the idiotic huffing and puffing and bicycle fin kicks are usually the first sign of trouble.

I plan to get a little yellow dive buddy strapped to my tank to make up for random buddy dives now that I am getting back into diving and my only trusted dive buddy lives in the next state.

EDIT: And to directly answer the original question, as was stated they are a certification of completed training, not competency, and having done something can't really "expire" (unless its a speeding ticket or past the statute of limitations).

 

[sheeper]

as I do some guiding, I ALWAYS ask dive clients how many dives do they have and when was their last dive. If the last dive was 5 years ago then instead of guiding we look at a "refresher". A lot of clients do not accept that. But I'd rather have them walk away than put themselves and potentially me in to a dangerous situation

 

[iluvtheocean]

was just thinking they are similar to your high school diploma. (or college) -- they just provide proof that you have been trained and shown some sort of competency in skills taught. driver's license is comparable without the government oversight (at least in the US) for the reasons given -- unless you're cave diving - the only life you might end would be your own.

Also -- scuba diving has been considered an "extreme" sport due to the environment and so far the only government intervention is dealing with tanks and filling them.

if i was an operator or a guide -- yeah i would be concerned if someone's last dive was a long time ago -- but that is due to that diver when you take them on as a client becomes your liability.