why helium?

[DiveBandit]

The kaliedoscope of colors must be amazing at that depth, you could always bring some "Iron Butterfly" on an MP3 player to get the full effect...

I'm still waiting for them to make an ipod case that'll go that deep.

For the sake of clarification, please answer for me the following questions:

1) At what point do you believe narcosis begins to affect your ability to make timely and correct decisions?
2)Do you think your ability to react to an emergency is impaired with narcosis or not?
3)How do you reconcile the accepted science regarding narcosis with your decisions?

I am truly interested in your rationale here. Of course your decisions are your own and I don't intend to change your mind because it is not my right to do so. However, I am trying to understand the mindset of those who share the same opinion you do
regarding this. Personally I believe your approach is no different from that made by my rugby buddies who feel "good enough to drive" after several (many several) drinks. How do you personally reconcile that comparison with what you chose to do.

Again, interested in your point of view. Not a flame. We can agree to disagree.

If your asking honestly for informational purposes I'll tell you. Keep in mind this is just my experience. I can't speak for the other guys I dive with.

1. About 50% of the time I start to feel some effects at about 180'. I can definetly say I'm feeling it at 200' to 210'. Some times oddly enough, I don't feel them at all. Part of how we deal with narcosis is to make our dive plan non-negotiable. By that I mean that as a rule we have a nice dive down through the cave till the lead diver hits 220' then we turn - period. Not 221', no "I'm feelin gooooood - lets go just a few more feet", nothing, We turn at 220' end of story. Otherwise we plan for emergencies and practice skills until there 2nd nature in shallow water just like you should for shallow water diving. We also live by the "any diver can call the dive at any time for any reason" rule which has been used once.

2. Having done the PVC pipe drill at 100', 150', and 200', I can tell you that for me there is no time difference from 100' to 150' but my time gets a few seconds longer when going from 150' to 200' so there is impairment. I think the difference between driving drunk and cave diving at 220' on air is this. In a car at 75 Mph while impaired, you take a few seconds to react to something that demands a split second reaction which usually doesn't make for good endings. While cave diving you can and should take a second or two to think about whats going on if you have the peace of mind to stay calm.

3. Not sure how to answer this one. But I guess I reconcile my decision like this. I tech dive. Some times your 60 feet down and 3000 feet back, some times your 200 feet back and 220 feet down. The only way to avoid risk all together is not to dive. Otherwise we use progressive penetration. The first time I dove a cave to 220 feet was not the first time I dove that cave. As stated previously by others. We each decide how far we are willing to go and how much risk we are willing to take. As the saying goes, "A man has got to know his limits". I have self imposed limits i created for myself. I'm not prone to panic, I work well under pressure, and I'm very familiar via progressive diving, with the cave I do those deep dives in, so my chances of meeting Jesus on one of those dives are low enough for me to live with.

Hope that gives you some insite into us crazy deepair divers minds

 

[Meng_Tze]

Narcosis,
What system is that you do these dives in?

 

[Mike Edmonston]

I work well under pressure, and I'm very familiar via progressive diving, with the cave I do those deep dives in, so my chances of meeting Jesus on one of those dives are low enough for me to live with.

Hope that gives you some insite into us crazy deepair divers minds

Well, a couple things...

I understand the fact that you recognize the effects, and that you choose not to exceed YOUR IMPOSED limits. But your choices can have severe ramifications in the community, and in your family should an incident occur.

It won't take much for the state to close down Eagle's nest again, if a deep air diver gets in trouble and drowns. The argument would be made that the diver knew there was a better gas choice, but chose to dive air anyway. They would assume that we are renegade genX divers, with no regard for safety, and that we can't police our own ranks. Results, cave closed.

How about your Family, would they not want the best for you? Would they not wonder why you did not choose to dive a more appropriate gas that could have possibly given you the chance to survive? Their sorrow and grief would last for months or years. Is that really fair to them?

I will not tell you how and what to dive, I only ask that you think about the repercussions that your actions have, long after you're not here to explain them.

Not doing so is just being selfish...

Safe Diving

 

[DiveBandit]

EDIT:I was going to PM this, but decided against it.

I knew someone was gonna go there. So the spiral begins

Mike, come on now. I appreciate that you are very safety minded, I met you once at Scuba west when they were having a Diverite demo day. You seem like a great guy, but please don't lop me and the people I dive with into the same bucket you would place the 3 guys on single AL80's and "ink still wet" cavern cards I saw gearing up at the Nest 2 weeks ago. That very boxed (and very repeated) response should be reserved for newb's who don't know what they don't know. I don't consider my self to be a tech god, but I do know what I'm doing, and I do have some experience at it. As my sig says. Posturing and politics are counter productive. If we're going to go down this road with this discussion instead of having a good educational discussion about deep air and helium, I'm out.

Safe diving all.

 

[Meng_Tze]

....
It won't take much for the state to close down Eagle's nest again, if a deep air diver gets in trouble and drowns. The argument would be made that the diver knew there was a better gas choice, but chose to dive air anyway. They would assume that we are renegade genX divers, with no regard for safety, and that we can't police our own ranks. Results, cave closed.

My thinking exactly........ I don't much want to address the 'deep air' thing. That is up to each individual and they will have to think through that for who they leave behind. No different than any other diver.

 

[Bismark]

Narcosis, thanks for the candid reply. I was truly interested in your train of thought here and I have no intentions of bashing you for your choices. I personally made different choices with the evidence I had at hand but that is just my choice. You made yours and that is that. I would be interested in hearing how you see the same dives once you do them on trimix. From an anecdotal perspective, several people I know who used to dive deep air and then took trimix training have reported completely different experience. I have never dove 200' on air so I don't have that to personally compare it too. My decision was based on the view that I didn't need to drive really, really drunk to appreciate driving sober, but again, that was my own point of view. I understand that part of the problem is the fact that narcosis also impairs your memory so even if someone tried an "experiment" for their own knowledge, they might not remember it anyways.......

Again, thanks for sharing your personal opinions.

 

[DiveBandit]

Bismark - your welcome, I always enjoy learning new things, and relaying my experiences to others so they can learn or glean information from it.
The memory thing is interesting. I've never lost my memory. but myself and others will sometimes lose the finer details. For example, you might see a sign at depth and remember the sign, where it was, it's color and all, but even though it was only 3 sentences, and you know you read it, you can't remember everything it said. Other divers I know have no memory loss at all!?

I'm pretty sure thats what they mean when you read passages about divers that switched to trimix and just love the fact that they can actually remember the dive back on the surface.

Meng - I don't really know how fast or slow anybody would be to close the nest, but here's some wood for the fire. from a St. Pete times article in 2003.

Once Chassahowitzka Wildlife Mangement Area took control of Eagle's Nest, they saw no reason to continue prohibiting divers; especially considering that each fall they invite liability with hundreds of camouflaged hunters armed with rifles and shotguns. "These divers know the risk they're taking," said Wickrowski, a wildlife biologist.

 

[Mike Edmonston]

EDIT:I was going to PM this, but decided against it.

I knew someone was gonna go there. So the spiral begins

Mike, come on now. I appreciate that you are very safety minded, I met you once at Scuba west when they were having a Diverite demo day. You seem like a great guy, but please don't lop me and the people I dive with into the same bucket you would place the 3 guys on single AL80's and "ink still wet" cavern cards I saw gearing up at the Nest 2 weeks ago. That very boxed (and very repeated) response should be reserved for newb's who don't know what they don't know. I don't consider my self to be a tech god, but I do know what I'm doing, and I do have some experience at it. As my sig says. Posturing and politics are counter productive. If we're going to go down this road with this discussion instead of having a good educational discussion about deep air and helium, I'm out.

Safe diving all.

Hey bud,

If you read my post again, you'll see that nowhere do I question your abilities, nor am I telling you how to dive. It was more of a "Please be careful" post, due to some of the recent incidents in our community. I still firmly believe that there are better gas choices available, but I am not discounting deep air if that's all that is available. (Try and get Trimix in Equador...).

Personally I like to dive mix whenever I am below 120'. I just feel better after the dive. This is a personal choice.

Safe diving

 

[Bismark]

Bismark - your welcome, I always enjoy learning new things, and relaying my experiences to others so they can learn or glean information from it.
The memory thing is interesting. I've never lost my memory. but myself and others will sometimes lose the finer details. For example, you might see a sign at depth and remember the sign, where it was, it's color and all, but even though it was only 3 sentences, and you know you read it, you can't remember everything it said. Other divers I know have no memory loss at all!?

I'm pretty sure thats what they mean when you read passages about divers that switched to trimix and just love the fact that they can actually remember the dive back on the surface.

Meng - I don't really know how fast or slow anybody would be to close the nest, but here's some wood for the fire. from a St. Pete times article in 2003.

Once Chassahowitzka Wildlife Mangement Area took control of Eagle's Nest, they saw no reason to continue prohibiting divers; especially considering that each fall they invite liability with hundreds of camouflaged hunters armed with rifles and shotguns. "These divers know the risk they're taking," said Wickrowski, a wildlife biologist.

The funny thing about memory is you don't remember what you forgot

 

[DiveBandit]

Hey bud,

If you read my post again, you'll see that nowhere do I question your abilities, nor am I telling you how to dive. It was more of a "Please be careful" post, due to some of the recent incidents in our community. I still firmly believe that there are better gas choices available, but I am not discounting deep air if that's all that is available. (Try and get Trimix in Equador...).

Personally I like to dive mix whenever I am below 120'. I just feel better after the dive. This is a personal choice.

Safe diving

Then you have my apologies. See, I said you were a great guy

The funny thing about memory is you don't remember what you forgot

LOL, so true...