Why I didn't buy from my LDS

[Donnie]

Fairbanksdiver,

I really like "Scubapolly's" idea of changing the LDS quote to "Support a good local dive shop." (And we should!)

In all fairness, I feel as though I should comment on my previous dive shop.

From the moment I walked into the door, the owner told me that he really wanted his shop to be a great "Hang-Out" for divers. He then directed me over to group of guys and gals over in one section of the shop that were sitting around on sofa's, drinking coffee, and talking about... well... WHATEVER! (I joined them!)

From that day on... it was great to stop by the scuba shop after my morning jog, and visit with the shop owner, and all those who gathered around the coffee pot. The owner supplied the coffee ("Star Bucks") and muffins from "Costco." We all chipped in with spare change for the coffee, and the muffins were $1.00 a piece. It was a really great atmosphere to be in, and I met some wonderful divers!

But!... while we were sitting there enjoying our coffee, and the atmosphere... we couldn't help but stare and the newest regulators, BCD's, Diving suits, ect... ect... Eventually... we would fondle some piece of (competitively priced) equipment, and more likely than not... we purchased it! (Oh Man!... I can still smell the neoprene!)

I spoke with the owner in private one day and he told me that he made a lot of money from "impulsive buyers" who's sole purpose for coming in that day was not to buy gear... but rather to relax and enjoy a cup of coffee with other divers. The owner could care less if someone purchased the gear from his store or the internet! His intent was to make his shop a great hang out... and he would eventually pick up money from incidentals. (As well as some gear!) Ya know what??!!! IT WORKED! He did very well for himself as a scuba shop owner.

After moving back to Oregon, I discovered that the shop owner sold his scuba shop, and the new owner was not doing very well. I am told that the coffee pot went away, as did the sofas and chairs. This was to make rook for the new gear displays.

Some of my buddies said that if you weren't buying anything... it was really uncomfortable to stay and visit. So... eventually every one left, and it was back to"Local Dive Shop Business as Usual." I am also told that the new owner got into his "Scuba god" mode, and would tell divers what gear, he thought, they actually needed, always steering them towards the more spendy, over-inflated" gear.

I am also told that the shop has since gone under (Yea!!!) and a "Lingerie Store" is there in its place! (Double Yea!!!!!) Thank the Good Lord for Lace!

It seems to me that internet sales do not hurt a dive shop so much as their attitude! When I spend money locally... I pay particularly close attention to their attitudes... then I look at their prices. I would like to spend my money locally... but I guarantee that I will spend my money on a good and ethical business, (Even if its in another State,) before I ever darken the doorway of a locally owned "Slob Scuba Shop!"

Donnie

 

[scubapolly]

I am siding with you that your dive shop sucks.... if you live somewhere that the LDS is this bad by all means look elsewhere- Shop when you are on vacation, and even look into the internet.

I didn't realize that lying face down in 15' of water and waiting for someone to come bring you off the bottom was so dangerous... or playing an unconscious/non-breathing diver at the surface... all frought with peril I guess.

First of all it is always best to have someone as a victim in a rescue class that is already certified as a rescue diver (we typically use DMs). This is for 2 reasons: first the victim is likely to catch little things they did right, and things they did wrong that a person observing the rescue might not notice, and that a person that hasn't gon through the course wouldn't even know to look for. Second, it can be very dangerous depending on the rescue senerio: uncontrolled assents and entanglement are always a posiblility and a certified rescue diver is more likely to foresee these dangers. Before the angry e-mails start I know that there are a lot of AOW divers that have better skills than some DMs and Instructors for that matter, but I am saying in general, and that God forbid something go wrong you have a much better legal leg to stand on if you aren't using a student in a "lower" class as a victim.

The money factor is also an issue. They essentially were making you Pay to work for them. We pay or DMs for quarry weekends, our DM and instructor candidates are getting "credit" for time spent at the quarry for their higher rating... you were just getting screwed.

90% of your complaints against internet dive shops have been addressed by Larry of Scubatoys. His shop shares the same operating costs that yours does, and yet, he's able to run a highly profitable dive shop (with revenues many times over the average LDS). Why? Because he's embraced technology and the internet, and isn't scared to make use of it. I haven't heard a single one of his web customers complain about the quality of his customer service or support. Heck, I'd like to... just to prove that he's human... I'm highly suspicious that he's an alien sent from planet Xargthron, where their dive industry has evolved far beyond the understanding of most LDS owners.

I have heard good things about Larry. I have not myself purchased from him, but I too have not heard any problems. I do however know of a lot of people who have had problems with other internet sites.... buyer beware.

Polly

 

[mike_s]

Fairbanksdiver,

[snip]

I am also told that the shop has since gone under (Yea!!!) and a "Lingerie Store" is there in its place! (Double Yea!!!!!) Thank the Good Lord for Lace!

You should talk to the new "Lingerie Store" owner about putting the couches
and coffee pot back in. That would be a "hang out"

 

[scubapro50]

one of the best ways to keep a dive shop going is starting a local dive club that meets and hang out at the local shop. The dive shop owner need to reconize that diving is a "people" business. You need to keep your customers happy and if that means having a Superbowl party at the dive shop to watch the game and get some diving talk in between plays then great ... you're building a customer base that will pay off in the long term. Who knows ... maybe they will sign up for that dive trip the shop is running in June while at the BBQ.

 

[Brandon]

I am siding with you that your dive shop sucks.... if you live somewhere that the LDS is this bad by all means look elsewhere- Shop when you are on vacation, and even look into the internet.

Thanks Polly, when the situation is fully understood, this is the logical solution.

The money factor is also an issue. They essentially were making you Pay to work for them.

Especially apparent when you consider that the students helped load the gear before we left, unload all of the gear when we got there, pack it back up, and helped unload it back at the shop. And it wasn't that we volunteered... this was what was expected. They've also had students running the compressor while we're down there. (duck!)

I have heard good things about Larry. I have not myself purchased from him, but I too have not heard any problems. I do however know of a lot of people who have had problems with other internet sites.... buyer beware.

Fair enough. I just made another order from him today =) I'm not (at this moment) interested in buying any major pieces of gear from Leisurepro/DiveInn, because I feel that having a valid manufactor's warranty is important. It's really just a matter of educating yourself about your options when it comes to buying online, and choosing what's best for you.

I'll also inject something else to think about into this thread...

I'm not the most assertive person in the world. If I were, I imagine I could have resolved some of these issues when they happenede. However... it's a pretty intimidating thing to confront your LDS (and their army of instructors/staff who's always at the shop), when they all share the same viewpoint. I don't think I should have to feel pressured in my LDS, or have to argue with their staff. I don't think I should have to deal with all of the bs that I've outlined in this thread... but ultimately, what's my solution?

If it doesn't specifically say so, I haven't confronted them about anything in this thread. I'm not sure if I should, mostly because of the time frame that has elapsed, and the fact that I didn't deal with it when it happened. I'd like to, but at the same time, I don't want to make things more uncomfortable, and I do still need things from them (air fills mostly.. but also to finish my AOW paperwork).

My current solution is to just wait it out until I leave the State, and avoid giving them any large amount of business. I've found an instructor who was certified by them, but works outside the shop that can do the Rescue / Ice Dive classes I want to take. If that were to fall through, I can always go to Anchorage to do them.

Is there a better way? Or is this the best that I can do, given the way the problems were dealt with at the time? Is this just a massively large learning lesson for me?

Keep in mind my age... I'm 21... confronting individuals who have been in the business longer then I've been alive isn't the easiest thing in the world.

So, forgive my venting, I can't do it there, so I do it here. I'm sure there's plenty of others in the same boat.

-B.

Oh... by the way Scubapro50... the owner of the LDS is the president of the Dive Club. Kinda thinking that might be a problem...

 

[Brandon]

So just a quick update:

I met with DSE #6 on Friday, and we finished up the paperwork (knowledge reviews... only had one answer that she needed to clarify!) for my AOW cert. I still need to show her my dive logs (sitting in Oregon), and then I'll have the card. Once again, big kudos to her for meeting with me on her own time, and helping me finish all this stuff up.

We had a chat on diving in general, and I started to realize that she has some real hard-set biases towards equipment, diving, classes, agencies, companies, etc.. While I wasn't suprised, it made for some tricky conversation. Especially when she asked what kind of diving I wanted to do in the future, and I mentioned moving towards a more technical approach through a DIR-F class. Her response was that these types of classes were offered through PADI specialties / TDI classes, and dismissed the whole GUE/DIR approach. Oh well. She said herself that she has no interest in cave / wreck penetration. I do. I'll have to approach training in a different way... nothing wrong with that, it's just different.

Some other interesting points from the conversation:

Anyone else notice the MSRP for the Light cannon was jacked up to $280?
Spare Air still counts as a redundant air source! Even for ice diving!

She kept trying to pimp computers on me during our conversation... I still don't want one.... are tables really that difficult for some people? $1,000 for a Cobra at their LDS seems ridculous for something I can do on the back of my slate...

I walked away from our conversation with a revelation:

My dive shop can train me how to do things a certain way, and can stand by those practices, as silly as they seem. It doesn't mean I have to do the same thing while I'm diving. (I've done about 2 dozen shallow solo dives, refuse to use my drysuit for buoyancy, only to releive squeeze, and I disagree that spare air is acceptable in an ice diving class as a redundant air source. Drives them nuts.)

Their opinion is worthless if I've researched the equipment myself, and I shouldn't listen to it. 95% of the time they're just trying to sell me something more expensive.

I don't think I'm angry at them anymore, just entertained by the absurdity of it all.

-Brandon.

 

[RiverRat]

I've come to the conclusion that my LDS is awesome for some things and worthless for others. They teach to use the BC buoyancy, not your drysuit, I agree with that. They also teach that backplate and wings will drown you at the surface and they suck because you don't have enough ditchable weight. I STRONGLY disagree with that. They just want to sell weight integrated BC's. That's cool that you want to make $ but it's WAY UNCOOL to spew out the same old industry voodoo crap dictated by the P*** / Equipment Manufacturer / LDS sales organization. Teach divers to be divers first, then the sales will come. Don't tell me my BP/W will drown me at the surface unless I dive double steels, it's a crock. Don't try to embarass me in my drysuit class by telling the 2 other students that I like to "brag" about how little ditchable weight I use. Go ahead, strap 30# on a belt and lose it at 75 fsw. Whose laughing now? Anyway, he proceeded to talk about the D** weight integrated BC's then and how you really needed to have one with a dry suit. He ripped me up just to push BC's.. C'mon..give it up. I was doing barrell rolls in the pool on my first drysuit dives with my FredT backplate and wing (to test out my stability, trim etc.) I bought a pony bottle last night and they said well now you need another Reg, brackets etc. I proceeded to tell them I bought a used reg for it. I could just hear it now as I walked out the door. C'mon, be happy I bought something. Anyway, I screwed up and didn't check the date on the tank, it's 2.5 years old. Been sitting around so now I gotta do a hydro in 2.5 years. It just doesn't stop sometimes, I get sick of hearing it over and over again. That's why I decided not to do the DM course with them. I won't even get into that one. If I ever get into teaching or open a shop I know I'll have to make some concessions but I'm NOT going to pull that crap! Many accidents happen to new divers in part because of what they're being taught before they actually learn to become good divers. Stand up for what you believe!

 

[Brandon]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention something... you reminded me with your pony bottle story.

When I bought fins the first time (the Blades II I ended up returning), the guy at the counter (prompted by their computer software) asked me:

"Would you like to buy some [whatever the name of that defog crap is] to prevent mask fogup?"

Me: No... spit works fine and is free.

[prompted by the computer again] "Would you like to buy a mesh duffel bag to hold your mask,snorkel, and fins?"

Me: (laughing) No.

When I returned the fins and did the exchange... same questions again! I think the dive shop owner used to be a telemarketer... this is some funny stuff.

-Brandon.

 

[RiverRat]

Yeah it is funny but it gets old soon. Especially when they start to get personal with the wise cracks. I'm starting to have fun with it though. I may ask them to give me a reg rebuild kit or something for selling me a tank close to hydro. That'll stir 'em up as they want total loyalty. I made the mistake once of telling one of the guys I bought some rebuild kits. I took my regs in as the HP seat went during the time I was training for Rescue so I had them do the rebuilds. $140.00 bucks plus I got the most condescending letter about not letting "incompetants" work on the internals, they were convinced me or someone worked on the regs and screwed 'em up. That my HP hose was about to burst (of course the IP was high, they were freeflowing you morons because of the HP seat problem) and "DO YOU LIKE DOING CESA'S?" More industry Voodoo crap to "scare" me into never touching my regs! How am I supposed to learn! Anyway I have all the tools and my Apeks are the easiest regs you could work on.

 

[Dive Junky]

If you don't like the grocery store down the street what do you do? If the dry cleaner in your town does'nt do a good job what do you do? You find a place that does do a good job. I really don't know what all the pissing and moaning is all about.

The shop I hang out at in South Jersey is like an extension of my family. If they didn't treat me and all my friends so well we would find another shop. I also realize that without our local shops we will not be diving. We will all loose touch with our buddies, we won't have a place to continue our education, and we won't have a place to service our gear and get air.

Trying to use poor service some of us are getting, or inflated prices some of us are paying as an excuse to run off to the internet is a big mistake which you will regret latter. Why should your shop have to assemble that new reg or "tweak" it for free when you bought it somewhere else? Get the internet store to fix it for you. I own a construction business. If I lost a job to another contractor for, let's say a kitchen, and then got a call from the same home owner 2 months latter to come and put some knobs on their new cabinets I would be insulted, not greatful that they were giving me "some" work.

Our shops will never survive trying to make money on classes, service, and selling air. They have to have the profits on sales also. I am sorry to hear some of you have had such bad experiences with your shops. My question to you is: Why do you keep going back to the same bad outfit? Find a new LDS and stop making all of them look so bad and encouraging internet sales.