Kronek
Contributor
I dunno, put a twinky at the end of the track and we might see some interesting results.
Why new divers looking into instructor and tech diving
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I dunno, put a twinky at the end of the track and we might see some interesting results.
Them
Contributor
Getting back to the original point....
There are many areas in life where relative beginners teaching to absolute beginners is considered a natural stage of your progression from beginner to expert. The idea is that you learn more by teaching a subject than by just applying it for yourself, and teaching is one of the best ways to gain real-world experience in a low-risk (only a few people will die, vs. many people dying) way.
There are many areas in life where relative beginners teaching to absolute beginners is considered a natural stage of your progression from beginner to expert. The idea is that you learn more by teaching a subject than by just applying it for yourself, and teaching is one of the best ways to gain real-world experience in a low-risk (only a few people will die, vs. many people dying) way.
When I started my cave training, I had already achieved several technical diving certifications. On that first day of training, someone saw my instructor and me suiting up and asked about cave training. He said that he was interested, and my instructor gave him his card. While I was dong my cavern training, we saw the prospective student and his wife in the open water near the cavern entrance. They were practicing their mask clearing skills while kneeling in the sand.
For those of you who don't know, in cave diving, you have to be able to perform that and much more complex skills while holding your position in horizontal trim. This is a standard part of technical diving instruction, so I was in pretty good shape starting the course. This prospective student was going to have a very difficult time with his beginning cave instruction, given his skill level starting out.
But that doesn't matter. Given my head start, I breezed through the first levels of cave certification. He would have a much more difficult time, and it would take him much longer. So what? As long as the final standard remains the same, what difference does it make how long it takes?
More importantly, as long as that student was still thinking it is OK to do all your skills kneeling in the sand, he was not gong to get any closer to the goal by diving on his own. After another 100 dives like that, he would still lack those critical skills. He would still be a relative beginner. In comparison, if he starts the cavern class and gets good instruction, his progress toward his goal will be greatly accelerated. He will find out what he needs to do, and he will be shown how he needs to do it. If he does 100 dives after getting that instruction, he will be a pretty darn good diver.
For those of you who don't know, in cave diving, you have to be able to perform that and much more complex skills while holding your position in horizontal trim. This is a standard part of technical diving instruction, so I was in pretty good shape starting the course. This prospective student was going to have a very difficult time with his beginning cave instruction, given his skill level starting out.
But that doesn't matter. Given my head start, I breezed through the first levels of cave certification. He would have a much more difficult time, and it would take him much longer. So what? As long as the final standard remains the same, what difference does it make how long it takes?
More importantly, as long as that student was still thinking it is OK to do all your skills kneeling in the sand, he was not gong to get any closer to the goal by diving on his own. After another 100 dives like that, he would still lack those critical skills. He would still be a relative beginner. In comparison, if he starts the cavern class and gets good instruction, his progress toward his goal will be greatly accelerated. He will find out what he needs to do, and he will be shown how he needs to do it. If he does 100 dives after getting that instruction, he will be a pretty darn good diver.
youcanhavegulped
Registered
It seems like the OP is saying that after training he wouldn't be a good tech diver?
You can say the same about OW training, not everyone is a good diver after they finish. And even if he just continued to rec dive, I don't feel that would prepare him to be a tech diver, that's why you take classes and practice skills. Just throwing my thoughts in.
You can say the same about OW training, not everyone is a good diver after they finish. And even if he just continued to rec dive, I don't feel that would prepare him to be a tech diver, that's why you take classes and practice skills. Just throwing my thoughts in.
DaleC
Contributor
If the only way one can learn to clear a mask in horizontal trim is to take a formal intro to tech/cavern course I want someone to explain how I did it - and more importantly, to issue me my Cave card!
You improve by actually diving at the level of knowledge you currently have. After you have internalized the knowledge and become proficient, you then take the next logical course (if you need to). That's how you improve.
But let me ask you an honest question. Would you take all those courses if you could not list the credits anywhere and did not receive a C card. No external recognition of any sort. If the answer is yes then you are seeking knowledge (though perhaps at to fast a pace). If the answer is no then it's more about the ego stroke than the learning.
When diving became monetized the model of continuing education took an artificial turn. Today, the business model is to continue to press the diver to enroll in the next course so that the shop/agency can make money - your "improvement" is just a sales pitch (that you have swallowed). No profit driven shop wants to tell you the correct way to learn which is: learn a little, dive a lot. Learn a little, dive a lot. Some strategies employed are to appeal to your fear of the unknown, your ego and the erosion of the belief that you can learn many aspects of diving without recourse to formal education.
Also, in the past most diving was done in basic, local OW settings; but it is hard for the dive industry to make money that way so they have downplayed that aspect of diving in favour of destination diving or advanced pursuits like turning pro or technical. It is much easier to promote continuing education to that demographic.
You improve by actually diving at the level of knowledge you currently have. After you have internalized the knowledge and become proficient, you then take the next logical course (if you need to). That's how you improve.
But let me ask you an honest question. Would you take all those courses if you could not list the credits anywhere and did not receive a C card. No external recognition of any sort. If the answer is yes then you are seeking knowledge (though perhaps at to fast a pace). If the answer is no then it's more about the ego stroke than the learning.
When diving became monetized the model of continuing education took an artificial turn. Today, the business model is to continue to press the diver to enroll in the next course so that the shop/agency can make money - your "improvement" is just a sales pitch (that you have swallowed). No profit driven shop wants to tell you the correct way to learn which is: learn a little, dive a lot. Learn a little, dive a lot. Some strategies employed are to appeal to your fear of the unknown, your ego and the erosion of the belief that you can learn many aspects of diving without recourse to formal education.
Also, in the past most diving was done in basic, local OW settings; but it is hard for the dive industry to make money that way so they have downplayed that aspect of diving in favour of destination diving or advanced pursuits like turning pro or technical. It is much easier to promote continuing education to that demographic.
This is certainly true, for example, in medical residency programs -- with the SIGNIFICANT caveat that the relative beginners doing the teaching are closely supervised by people who are NOT beginners, which is not the case with scuba instruction.
DevonDiver
N/A
Preparatory training for technical diving is the answer. It does exist.
Whilst it's pretty damned hard to fail an OW course, it's pretty damned hard to pass a cave course. I don't mean to cramp any recreational divers' style, but IMHO rec-level certifications are pretty much handed out like candy. I've not yet met a cave instructor who would certify a student they had doubts about - it's not an activity that you can 'get right at a later date'. If you carry the certification, then you've got to get it right first time, every time, or you'll die.
General OW technical training is a little bit more lax IMHO. That depends entirely on the instructor - however, there are some less than diligent tech instructors our there. Even then, it's still in a different ball-park to recreational level courses.
Recreational diving is forgiving. It's kinda expected that divers will make mistakes and learn from them as part of their development. An awful lot of mistakes need to be made concurrently to have a serious negative outcome. In contrast, overhead dives (whether cave, wreck or mandated deco) are very unforgiving, a single mistake can be terminal.
Tech/Cave/TecWreck divers need to be certified only when their instructor is reasonably confident they can handle themselves without making that killer mistake. In contrast, recreational divers can be certified unless their instructor is absolutely confident they cannot handle themselves.
That's an important distinction...
Tigerman
Contributor
I never said the training is the same, I said some of the reasons for doing it is the same.
And when it comes to tech training you most certainly CAN be dropped and you most certainly DO need to have the basic training done first.
DM and Instructor SHOULD be possible to fail although I dont know how many realisticly does.
When I talk of "some of the same reasons" I mean things like pushing yourself a bit further, the extra challenge and of course and "adventure" of going where most dont for whatever reason.
Ive never tried to hide the fact that the reason I sought more challenging services in the military was because I just wanted to push my limits rather than end up walking a lawnmover around the barracks.
And I have to admitt that Ive been playing with the idea of tech diving too, much because of the challenge and knowledge within the training.
Now if I could just combine that with reenlisting, wed have ourselves a field trip - quite literarilly - but I guess Im getting "too old for that sh**".
Paulmal
Contributor
I got certified as NAUI Cave 1 when I had 100 Dives. 90 percent of those dives were an hour or more, number of dives has nothing to do with comfort in the water. I would rather dive with a buddy that did 10 hour long dives than some of the DM's that did 50 dives that were 10-20 min long and with a 10 min surface interval.
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