Would You Use A Ponypak

[PonyPak]

Dumpsterdiver

Thank you....now I don't need to say it..... you just did!

The variety of issues are as you described.... and more. Generally, if you have an ascent line, it is best to use it. Particularly if you are in open water, and your ascent line takes you to the boat.

Depending upon the PonyPak tank size, and your depth (suit compression) , the weight of the PonyPak might be enough negative weight for some people.

But doing as you suggest... take one of the weights, may be a good suggestion for some situations.

Part of the "problem" with choices (as opposed to having none) is you have to decide what is best for any given situation. Fortunately, you will have enough air to make those decisions, calmly. And, that is where practice should also come in. I tell people, practice ditching! It's actually kinda fun. Do it with a buddy. Drop your gear, he brings it up, you climb back in, go down, ditch it again. In 30' you can repeat 3-4 times with one tank (skipping the safety stop - for training purposes). People surprise themselves, at how much more confident and self-reliant they become, with only a few practices. It works because it is easy to do, in a logical manner.

Re the lower clips. They are unseen, but work naturally. We designed / patented a special attachment that allows the direct clipping (to your waist belt) of a unique ITW-Nexus quick release buckle. Similar to the common SR-1's on all BC's, these have "outriggers" that you can easily feel with thick gloves. Squeeze them, (both hands on two clips, at the same time) the the male connector pops out, cleanly.

Again .... thank you for you input and insight...

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
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---------- Post added February 24th, 2015 at 06:09 PM ----------

Flots am.

I understand, everyone has an opinion. PonyPak adds a third mounting option (front) to the two it can do identically as any other system. Anyone who does not want the third option, can pass, unless they want the superior clipping system for the 2nd stage hose. If that is of no interest.....then stay with what you have.

All I am doing here is helping people, the best I can, understand something, about which they have preconceptions, that might change, after they have actually seen (and preferably) dived with the system, first hand.

As to all the "people you know"...who knows, maybe one will surprise you.

I have never suggested PonyPak for cave divers. It is not. However, if you want to side mount 120-160 cft tanks (with or without adding bungees and bailout 2nd stages), and with PonyPak's 4 port gas block....you could switch to diving with a full face mask. Why would you want to do that? You now can have full diver-to-diver communications and, (depending upon the cave shape and the location of the surface transponder) also have diver-to-surface audio communications.

Would that make cave diving safer?

PonyPak is about choices, for a variety of divers, in a variety of situations. Choices come only with new ides, new configurations, new thinking, that may work better for some people, in some situations.

If it doesn't fit... then ignore it.

Does that seem fair enough an answer?

I appreciate your comments. Thank you.

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
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[Hatul]

Really? I dive with a slung 19 cuft pony and it is maybe 1 pound negative, with rigging and regulators. (That's more than enough gas for a bailout from 100')

If you roll with that little weight (and it is not far off your center axis), something else is dramatically wrong

I don't think that's right. When I take my pony 13 (slung) I take 3 lbs off that side. I can check this again but I'm sure the negative buoyancy is more than 1 lb.

 

[PonyPak]

Hi uncfnp,

I appreciate your caveat about the prior posts.

Regarding female divers, yes. A very buxom young lady, from whom we learned: we need the availability of longer webbing for appropriate adjustment. It is adjustable, for every body shape, size and gender (so far that we have come across).

Your summation of target markets is fair. Although the principal reason sport divers give for not diving redundant is the discomfort they expect with both side slung and tank mount (both of which PonyPak will also do, by design). PonyPak is an alternative to that perception, by the majority of sport divers who have rejected side/tank mounting, and with it, redundancy.

As to "targeting" the SB audience.... that is not the case. I didn't start this thread. Someone else did, who I do not know. I didn't know it was posted, until a month later.

I have never posted on SB, but was required to do so, to respond to comments being made, by people who have never seen a PonyPak for real, and certainly have never dived it. Interestingly, the single person who has seen it for real - expressed an exact opposite opinion. What I do know, after seven years development, is that people's perceptions change, after the dive with it. Many change, just see it for real.

As stated several times in early posts (I hope you will go back and read them...they're my profile... they're all there), the website is a fast temp, and the videos are NOT professional. They literally are ruff edits of the raw footage of our early documentation dives in each application. Nothing more. So many people wanted to "see what it did U/W" it is all we had to show. Sorry.

Launching a new company, (last November at DEMA) with three products is a very time and money consuming task. We have to prioritize. Getting it to distributors and dealers is first. The website and professional videos will come. I hope you will be patient as we work through the start up challenges.

If you are curios as to what is already in place (as far as market interest) please review my very first responsive post. I think it is #55 or so...

I really appreciate your time and interest. I welcome every comment.

Thank you.

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---------- Post added February 24th, 2015 at 06:52 PM ----------

Hatul, you are correct. And a 19/20 even more. Thank you.
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[hroark2112]

Here's my problem with your promotions.

You state in the very first video that "hundreds of diver a year die, 70% would survive with a redundant air source"

DAN states that an average of 90 divers die a year, with the following breakdown:

• Insufficient Gas: 14%
• Rough Seas/Strong Current: 10%
• Natural Disease: 9%
• Entrapment: 9%
• Equipment Problems: 8%
• Could Not be Determined: 20%

So let's assume that the 20% were all OOA issues. That would leave 34% who potentially might have survived with a redundant air source (of course they might need more than 19 cf, but we'll assume you could save them all). That's 30 divers a year.

Your advertising campaign is a fear based, let's scare the crap out of people sp they will buy our junk method of selling that I absolutely abhor.

Do you potentially have a cool product? Maybe. Would I spend money on it or recommend anyone spend money on it? Nope. Not when you sell that way.

Sorry. I hate people who feel they have to scare people into a purchase to make a buck.

 

[flots am]

[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]

You mean this?

 

[Nemrod]

I am not sure I understand. People keep saying they would use a slung pony. This makes no sense to me as the Pony Pac is stand alone and a slung pony bottle is auxiliary to a main SCUBA?

I have somewhere among my belongings, a weight belt that I added a side holster for a 19 cf tank. I put a few weights on it, and insert the tank, the reg goes up and around behind my head or in some cases I just run it up under my chest with a swivel. I use it or have used it for quick explorations from my boat or when just out exploring.

N

 

[PonyPak]

Flots am

As a sub-category, yes. Not as main justification for redundancy.

If your buddy is 20' away, in 15' viz... your diving solo.

If you are behind your buddy, (and his looking where he is going, instead of you) and you have an emergency - and a leg cramp..... your diving solo.

This issue is not whether or not you want to dive alone. It is only about your ability to self-rescue in the event your buddy has forgotten about you. How likely is that?

The statistical truth is, in 86% of all fatalities, the "buddy with the octo" never knew his buddy, had just finished his last dive.

Please download this article;

http://www.xray-mag.com/pdfs/articles/Medical_WhatAreTheRisksReally_45_locked.pdf

That is why I suggest to people.....the first question you should ask your buddy is: "Are you redundant?"

Why? Because there is roughly 1 chance in 10 you will even know, he absolutely needed your assistance.... before he didn't.

(Note: if you have trouble downloading the article by this highly regarded scientist... post me. I'll sent it to you)

I would modify your excellent quote: "The nice thing about "redundant diving" is that you get to trust your buddies without relying on them."

William (Bill) Messner

[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]


---------- Post added February 24th, 2015 at 07:52 PM ----------

Hi Nemrod

Actually, PonyPak is meant to be a redundant supply. It might not be apparent in the "temporary" product photos.

Can PonyPak be used, just as you described your application? For quick boat inspection.... to get the cell phone that dropped in the harbor under the boat, while in the slip? Yes,

Would I recommend it.....No. If you do that, your are not redundant, which is contrary to my entire reason for creating PonyPak. To get all divers to dive redundant.

I appreciate your comments. Thank you.
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[flots am]

Flots am

As a sub-category, yes. Not as main justification for redundancy.

If your buddy is 20' away, in 15' viz... your diving solo.

If you are behind your buddy, (and his looking where he is going, instead of you) and you have an emergency - and a leg cramp..... your diving solo.

I always dive with a pony.

Some things you were too polite to mention were:

• If your buddy hasn't practiced air sharing since class, sharing air could easily result in two fatalities.
• Some people think "Gas Planning" means waiting until nobody is around before farting.
• Some people think "My gas is my gas" but don't tell you this up front.
• Some people who seem reliable will turn completely inert and useless during an actual emergency.

Bringing your own air means you never have to find out.

I think it's great that you're promoting pony bottles. Whether or not I like your design really doesn't matter if it gets people thinking and maybe doing something about being self-reliant.

flots.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

The more I look the more BS I see. He says the thing is held by 4 internationally patented clips... the video number one shows some dog clips.. Is this total BS or what? These are internationally patented clips?

A huge problem with the whole presentation and videos is that they are "all over the place". It is presented as a simple redundant system for a recreational diver, but the same video quickly goes to a switching block or some other technical/commercial crap, that I have no real idea about. The video doesn't show the recreational diver getting dressed in the gear.. oh no.. it shows a dive tender connecting the tank, using the unseen clips whose view is blocked by the bottle mounted sideways. Then in another video, the commercial diver has a tender, take the tank off ... You think this demonstrates the simplicity and convenience of the proposed solution?

Showing a reliance upon a dive tender, both before and after the dive is NOT the way to reach the recreational diver.

Most of the people here are going to be interested in recreational diving, umbilical, switch blocks, FFM etc. are completely irrelevant. If the idea is to clip it off as a stage bottle with using just 2 of the 4 clips, then show that. Show how it is easier, cheaper, safer, quicker, simpler than a standard stage bottle configuration which the industry has pretty much standardized after hundreds of thousands of dives and multiple agencies.. The differences in stage bottle rigging between the various agencies seems pretty small to me.

The the whole issue with clipping it across the chest with 4 clips... 2 of which are invisible.. how is that safer? There is no doubt it will make the harness harder and slower to remove at depth and on the surface. There is no doubt it is less streamlined. There is no doubt that the clips are invisible below the bottle. Even the video of the diver swimming at the surface on his back.. shows the bottle sticking out of the water and riding on the diver's belly. This is a clear example of this device pushing the diver underwater. In order to support it mostly out of the water, the diver has to provide excess inflation in the BC. who wants to swim on their back with a tank on their belly sticking out of the water? How is that safer and better?

The standard stage bottle rigging has so many little benefits and nuances; once you change it - it opens up a huge can of worms.

No body seems to even mention this, but for the recreational diver who might be digging into the bottom catching a lobster or pulling a fish from a hole.. the pony pak cross chest bottle, puts the second stage IN THE DIRT!.

I strongly dislike having anything that slows the process of removal of the scuba harness underwater. I hate the cummerbund and then redundant clips that many BC's use. I pretty much always cut the cummerbund off when using one of those BC's. A pretty much NEVER, clip off a spg hose to the opposite side of the BC, because then I have to unclip the spg clip in order to remove the harness. Doing something like that is stupid and reduces safety (although I see people do it all the time).

I pretty much HATE the standard BP/W harness with continuous belting.. because it is too hard to get into and out of. I want convenience and simplicity and will add shoulder clips or a sliding harness system so that I can get into and out of my unit faster and easier. It is a big deal to me.. why the hell would I want to ADD 4 ADDITIONAL, independent clips to remove my scuba harness!! Even in your response , you say it is oh so simple, you just take two hands, one on each clip and then pop the bottom, invisible clips off. I pretty much NEVER have both hands available to work my scuba gear- I always have something, often many things in my hands and in an emergency, one hand may be busy.

The more i think about this proposed system, the more ridiculous and unnecessary and cumbersome it appears to be.

This is how I rig my pony bottle.. back mounted simple and it may not be best for many situations, but it works for me. Simple, cheap, can be used on any scuba tank (even doubles) and is streamlined.

[video=youtube_share;j0sdSL-ng-g]http://youtu.be/j0sdSL-ng-g[/video]

 

[PonyPak]

Hroark2112

I really appreciate your comments. However, your conclusion is somewhat inaccurate, in part because your statistics are limited geographically, and your breakdown is somehow distorted.

I have a substantial library of the international studies that have been done on the subject. DAN is a critically important and reliable source (provided your information is coming directly from their original publications). Importantly, your DAN number comes from the US only.

The US accounts for only 5% of the global population. I presume your interest in diver safety is poly-cultural.

There are many studies on the subject. And there are studies about the studies. Talking only about DAN (including US, Asia and Europe), the actual annual number (for DAN globally) averages 150 / year.

Pursuant to "Table 2" of the recent publication "Open Circuit Diver Fatalities" (Vann RD, Denoble PJ, Pollock NW, eds. Rebreather Forum 3. AAUS/DAN/PADI: Durham, NC; 2013.) the
the "Triggering Event" is as follows. This table is copied directly from their publication.




There are other studies, from other parts of the world that put the OOA figure at 55-60%. The following is copied from "What are the risks, really" by Dr. Carl Edmonds, plublished in X-Ray Magazine.

"Inadequate Air Supply In the ANZ survey in half the deaths (56%), critical events developed when the diver was either running low or was out-of-air
(LOA, OOA). When equipment was tested following death, few victims had an ample air supply remaining."

Please download the entire article (published in X-Ray Magazine)

http://www.xray-mag.com/pdfs/article..._45_locked.pdf

These only scratch the surface of what has been "studied" about diver fatalities. To be sure, the research is an imperfect process. The statistics vary, sometimes inexplicable so. But even with that, the trending is clear. The number one cause of diver fatalities is one thing: the diver forgets to check his air - and runs out. That is 100% avoidable.

Furthermore, in half of those fatalities, the diver did not die at the bottom - he died at the surface... from an embolism, after an uncontrolled ascent (usually because he was LOA/OOAr).

In round numbers - what might it be? Globally?

DAN has about 350,000 members, (US/Asia/Europe). Using their number, 40% of 150 fatalities = 60 OOA fatalities, per year / per diver population of 350,000.

Now, extrapolate that to a "1M diver population" (for easier math)....that equals about "180 OOA fatalities / 1M diver population."

Now, the only remaining question is: How many "1M diver populations" are there on planet earth? What is the "universe" of population we use?

Certification agencies ...suggest about 28M divers worldwide (of 7.125B people). We won't use that - because most don't dive. Do we use manufacturers estimates? They suggest the population of divers - who own their own gear - is about 7M. Don't believe that? - cut it to 5 - and don't count all the divers who rent gear on their vacations.

Now multiply that number times the DAN rate of 180/1M population. What do you get?

Are DAN divers more safety conscious, than the majority of divers who are not DAN? Or are the majority less? How would "less" influence the actual number of fatalities?

Have you ever heard a tree fall in an Oregon forest? I haven't. So ... do I believe; no trees ever fall in Oregon forests? No.

The problem is (particularly in the US), our thinking is highly self-centric. But we are only 5% of the global population.

Were you aware that last July - in one month alone --- there were six (unrelated) diver fatalities on one stretch of the Irish coast? Six divers, in one month. On one coast!

Read this: "Diver becomes sixth fatality in month of tragedy at sea"

Diver becomes sixth fatality in month of tragedy at sea - Independent.ie

Trees do fall in an Oregon forest.... every day....whether I hear it or not.

The only thing people might "fear" (in your words) is their understandable, lack of knowledge of what is happening beyond the horizon of their daily experience.

Hroark2112 - if you really are interested in the numbers.... and I hope you are.....I have the data... and ready access to even more, from the sources.

If you want "to go there" with your understanding , I'd be happy to help you. We need more people, thinking like you, about this subject.

Thank you for raising it.

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
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