Would You Use A Ponypak

[Doc]

What's the cost????...

So far, it's been pretty brutal.

Dr. Lecter,

Question: Are you really a licensed doctor? In what?

Licensing is so... such... a technical thing.

Can't we just agree that he is a brain surgeon?

Dr. Lecter:

1) The first post was by "flyin01" whoever that is. It was not me.

Brian? Brian Williams?

The Court of the Internet can be a harsh Judge (Jury, and as is evident: Executioner). At least no one beat you up over your ubiquitous Force Fins. Accepting those critters took only 30 years and is still not universal.

 

[shoredivr]

In the second video, about entanglement, the diver doffs the BCD and tank.

Two points: why not disentangle the primary tank and BCD while breathing from the PP, since at this point Joe Recreational diver can disentangle and then put the scuba unit back on, at depth, which prevents.....

point two, an uncontrolled ascent for those divers with integrated weights who remove a scuba unit at 50 ft depth and ascend with the PP. (Those with weight belts don't have this problem.)

 

[JohnN]

In asking my fellow sport divers, why do you not dive redundant - 99% offered the same answer: "I see it swinging from under the arm, or on the side of their main tank -and I can tell, it will continually roll me over on my side. I don't want to be dealing with that all the time." Their perceptions are affirmed, when that ask those who do mount ponies that way. So they decide "I'll take my chances." And then do, some fatally. "Well established?" Maybe so with the small percentage of tech divers. For sport divers? Nada.

Really? I dive with a slung 19 cuft pony and it is maybe 1 pound negative, with rigging and regulators. (That's more than enough gas for a bailout from 100')

If you roll with that little weight (and it is not far off your center axis), something else is dramatically wrong

 

[flots am]

We also believe, in time there will be "events" where lives in fact are saved, because the diver himself or their buddy, was "PonyPak'd." We will have a place for people to share the stories....

As to the "clips," it features exactly what seven years of development, product analysis and dive testing by full-time professional divers, who work in the most adverse, horrid conditions imaginable. Those people, who have been by my side, have an accumulated number of professional dives - 20 + times greater than Mr. Lecter's very modest, (500-999).

I have no doubt that if you can get people to dive with a good redundant air source that you'll save lives, or at least prevent some panic and the need for rescue.

There's nothing wrong with a pony. Lots of people use one. The real complaint seems to be the way you've decided to mount it, which is, as far as I can tell the worst possible way.

Why not do a little redesign and sell a model pre-rigged as a stage bottle or back mount, as ponys are typically mounted? (both ways, I'm not suggesting just one or the other) While your mounting design is interesting, I really can't see an advantage to doing it that way, and as others have pointed out, a number of disadvantages. I can see no obvious reason for starting out at a disadvantage.

dive testing by full-time professional divers, who work in the most adverse, horrid conditions imaginable

Unless you're selling to these people, they're a terrible set of test subjects. Full time professional divers in horrid conditions (I suspect you're talking commercial or PSD) can deal with almost anything. They won't care if your design has a lot of drag because they're not going anywhere. They won't care if the clips can trap because they're willing to deal with it and probably already have a carabiner or two. You should be testing with whoever you expect to buy this, although I really can't figure out who that would be.

SCUBABoard is a pretty good representation of relatively frequent, recreational divers. If you can't sell it here, it's not going to sell to the public. I believe SB is under-represented by new divers, but they're not a likely market anyway, since they probably aren't in the mood to spend that kind of money.

flots.

 

[PonyPak]

You should welcome the feedback, both negative and positive. It is my guess that the negative feedback may be more useful than the positive. Having people focus in on the perceived weaknesses, should help you address them or allay their concerns.

Thank you for your comment....you are absolutely right! Have I not done that here: a "thanks" at both the beginning and the end of each post?

That is how PonyPak evolved over seven years of development. I questioned, listened and incorporated the opinions of people with professional experience far greater than mine. PonyPak is the product of that process.

I appreciate your interest. Thank you.

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
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[Doc]

Thank you for your comment....you are absolutely right! Have I not done that here: a "thanks" at both the beginning and the end of each post?

Technically no, not on post #75.

And the similar pointing out of one's own courteous behavior reminds me of Mrs. Wilson who taught us how to set tables and such in Second Grade. You prolly don't know who she is either, just like you don't know the OP.

Luckily someone (?) thought to revive this thread in the hours before the big public showing at OWU this weekend.

Keep digging.

 

[PonyPak]

Hi JohnN,

I appreciate your comments. Technically, you are right (it's actually a little more than 1 lb)....but if it was so easy, why do the vast majority of sport divers reject it?

Maybe, for a variety of small, but interrelated reasons, the "traditional" solution is not as good as it could be. Sometimes the best answer is so simple, it escapes everyone. People sometimes allow their preconceptions to get in the way of a simple thought..."As dumb as it may appear, let's give it a try".

The small-but-interrelated "benefits" can be missed, without a try. Interestingly, those who have, come away with a different take on the idea, than before.

The good news is, if front mount is not for you -- then simply side sling, or tank mount PonyPak. It will mount identically as you suggest, with the benefit of the third (front mount) option, if you ever want to revisit it.

If you are redundant already, terrific. You don't need PonyPak... unless you want the benefit of the hose clipping system. It is a lot easier, especially if you wear gloves.

PonyPak is an alternative - a new option, for the majority of sport divers to consider, who are not yet redundant.

Thank you JohnN for you comments. I appreciate your thoughts.

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
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---------- Post added February 24th, 2015 at 01:44 PM ----------

[FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Doc,

Post # 75 opens with:
"Hi Ouvea, I appreciate your questions, Thank you."
And ends with:
[FONT=&amp]"Thank you for your thoughts."

I don't know who the "OP" is... I wish they'd identify themselves.

Unlike most posters here, I post under my real name. My email address, mailing address and phone number are all available.

Our "big public showing" was at DEMA last November, and Underwater Intervention last week in New Orleans. This is our 5th year at OWU.

And thank you for pointing that out. Everyone is welcome. Booth 611. I am also doing two seminars. Saturday will be on the PonyPak Umbilical System, and Sunday "What are the risks, really?" (A statistical look at redundancy for sport divers)

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
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[FONT=&amp]The only “buddy” who will never leave your side….. is YOU! Give your "buddy" the equipment he needs ... to save your life![/FONT]


---------- Post added February 24th, 2015 at 02:04 PM ----------

Flots am

I appreciate your comments. Regarding your suggestion: "Why not do a little redesign and sell a model pre-rigged as a stage bottle or back mount, as ponys are typically mounted?"

You may have missed my prior comments in multiple posts: PonyPak will mount identically as any other system: side-sling and tank mount. No redesign is needed. It's already there.

As to your perceived "disadvantages"....please see post #87.

You might want to reconsider your opinions about what professional divers "won't care about." Spend time with these people. Listen to them. Watch them. Go through their training and certification. Dive with them. Your opinion may likely change.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond to your thoughts.

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
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---------- Post added February 24th, 2015 at 02:35 PM ----------

In the second video, about entanglement, the diver doffs the BCD and tank.

Two points: why not disentangle the primary tank and BCD while breathing from the PP, since at this point Joe Recreational diver can disentangle and then put the scuba unit back on, at depth, which prevents.....

point two, an uncontrolled ascent for those divers with integrated weights who remove a scuba unit at 50 ft depth and ascend with the PP. (Those with weight belts don't have this problem.)

Shoredvr:

I appreciate your observations and suggestions.

In many situations, you may be correct. FYI, the dive test in the video was to affirm: 1) the ease with which PonyPak is deployed (for the diver himself, or hand-off to a buddy); b) that a relaxed, normal ascent can be made with a 13 cft tank, from a common depth (for sport divers), and do so with a full safety stop.

Where your suggestion might not work (disentangle, then put the BC back on), is where there is concern, after extracting himself from the entangled equipment, the diver might re-entangle his equipment - (or maybe himself) in the process.

This might happen if the entanglement is in low viz environments, or involves thin filament wire (fishing gear), etc.. It also depends how deep the diver is. 13cft or 19ct is enough for a safe ascent. But to work through the additional time to save the gear? You many not have the margin for error that is needed.

The safe way is to extricate yourself first. Then, get a fresh tank (or your friends) to return for your gear, with the appropriate tools, based upon the new knowledge about the hazards to be faced.

An uncontrolled ascent? It could be an issue. However, an ascent, with plenty of air, is better than no ascent - or one on a single breath of air.

If a person is calm (which they should be, knowing they have enough air) they can reasonably control the ascent, even if they are positively buoyant. With water compression, even wetsuits are not that buoyant, at depth. Maybe the last 15-20' it could be an issue. If you have an ascent line, swim to it first, to control everything thereafter.

Bottom line, it all depends upon the situation. What is important, is that the diver knows, he has enough air, to take a few moments, and sort it all out. Time to create a plan.

Ultimately, it is panic, that triggers a fatality, in an otherwise survivable event.

The purpose of PonyPak, for sport divers, is first - to greatly reduce the likelihood of panic. Then give him the air he needs to execute his plan....

Thank you for your comments.

[FONT=&amp]William (Bill) Messner[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
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[dumpsterDiver]

It is the solution for every diver in every situation.


If I were selling this thing I would say straight up.. if you are a typical recreational diver (in moderate to cold water) - which means you are diving with a traditional BC that has integrated weights, then ditching the scuba unit and all the lead and swimming up with a "pony pak" may not be the best idea.

You might even say, the diver should grab a weight pocket for the ascent. I know the video was intended to show how easy it is to remove the 4 clips from the bottle (two of which are invisible and must be done by touch) and to demonstrate that a small bottle can get a diver up from (an undetermined depth), but showing them swimming to an ascent line, rather than going straight up?? That just doesn't sound like the best protocol in an emergency to me.

 

[flots am]

deleted. bad mood.

 

[uncfnp]

Have not read all the thread, I admit, but a few points.

Can't speak for the men but as a female diver (were any in your test group?) I intensely dislike the idea of the front mount for reasons that should be obvious.

Two, it would seem you have two target groups, specialized PSD/commercial (I have no insight into the appropriateness for this group) and "sport" which I can speak to. Any diver that can not manage the trim of a slung tank, with a little practice, is not a very...adequate diver. So prehaps the occasional, new or uninformed sport diver may be attracted to your design. Overall, this is not your audience with SB so the fact that you have received a lot of negative comments should really not surprising.

Three, if you are serious that you hope to target the typical SB profile sport diver then accept the criticism and adapt for this audience. I predict the front mount will not fly regardless of any of your arguments.

Four, your web site is very difficult to read with the fine yellow font and the quality of your videos do not inspire confidence in the manufacturer.