"Doing it Cheap" Why?

[ams511]

Or buy an Atomic T3. Lifetime warranty and should last me forever. I bought it because I can, not because of a warranty.

The warranty and parts for life programs are separate. The yearly service interval is mainly to keep the parts for life active not the warranty. Scubapro has a lifetime warranty and their Subgear brand has a 30 year warranty. Most regulators will last forever if taken care of properly.

---------- Post added February 18th, 2014 at 08:44 AM ----------

That particular reg will have cost the buyer just under $70 with shipping, they got a full set with octo and gauges that was fully serviced and with Conshelfs being as reliable as they are can be abused for a good 3 years (probably much longer) and not need a thing done to it.

I watched that auction and set up a snipe but I was a bit low. Even without the service getting a Navy class A regulator for $70 with octo and gauges is an excellent deal.

---------- Post added February 18th, 2014 at 08:46 AM ----------

I've bought a few regs off ebay and I had every single one serviced once I received it. I wouldn't trust anyone's claim to it being serviced and advise others to do the same. Unless you know the seller and the reputation of the seller it's just not worth it.

Buying regs off eBay? Another dive professional doing it cheap. lol

 

[TomZ]

Cheap infers poor quality. Value infers quality at a good price. I would never buy "cheap" gear that may fall under the controversial heading of "life support". I might buy a cheap slate. I've constructed two DIY PVC rigs for my GoPro Hero 2 (bought used here on SB when the Hero 3 came out and the gear geeks HAD to have the new one).

I bought ScubaPro regs on (shudder) Craigslist, then had them re-built and upgraded to the latest and best configurations (MK20 UL to MK25 UL, S600, and G250V all with metal air barrels.)

I got a used Bare Trilam HD Tech for a third of the original price here on SB also. It was sent in to Bare for mods and full servicing. Even with upgrades (silicone neck seal install, silicone wrist seals and proper sized boots) it was less than 2/3rds of new.

My Aqualung travel BC was my LDS owners for part of a season, then he kicked it to me for less than half of retail.

I've bought plenty of new gear also. It just depends on MY perception of value.

 

[ams511]

I would never buy "cheap" gear that may fall under the controversial heading of "life support". I might buy a cheap slate.

I bought ScubaPro regs on (shudder) Craigslist, then had them re-built and upgraded to the latest and best configurations (MK20 UL to MK25 UL, S600, and G250V all with metal air barrels.)

What exactly is cheap life support gear? Given the litigious nature of America it would be absolutely foolish for a manufacturer to sell poor quality gear. An S600/MK-25 is a better breather than a R190/MK-2 but the cheaper regulator is not of poor quality. As a matter of fact it is probably more dependable than its expensive brother because it is less complicated.

Also there is a low correlation between latest and best. Up until the late 1990s Scubapro used metal air barrels in their barrel poppet regulators, G200B, G250, G500. Then with the new and improved G500 (which became the S-600) and G250 HP they switched to the plastic air barrel. Now they are going back to the metal air barrels again. They also went back and came up with an all metal regulator to take the place of the Balanced Adjustable.

 

[DCBC]

...This guy/shop only charges $50 for the class so why should I spend $200 from that guy? -- without really knowing what is being offered... Just because it is "cheap" doesn't mean it is a good value -- just like just because it is expensive doesn't mean it is great. But buying solely on price may just not be the best option.

I agree Peter; it's frustrating. A dive training course of the same name (or a similar name used by another agency) can be worlds apart when you look at the deliverable, but most people just seek the lowest price. Many consumers don't try to understand the differences, so an educated consumer isn't something that's common in Society. People run hectic lives and few have the time to invest in anything (not even their own families).

I believe that much of today's Society is focused on price rather than quality. We seem to have a Society that believes everything is disposable and should be easily obtainable. It makes sense when it comes to things like electronics because items are out-of-date before they have an opportunity to wear-out, but that's one of the few exceptions.

The same thought process seems to be applied to many other areas of life. If you get tired of your job, your hobbies, or your wife, one solution that is often acceptable seems to be to just get another one. So all this may be more deeply rooted than people just seeking the lowest price.

 

[ams511]

I believe that much of today's Society is focused on price rather than quality.

You can blame society but much of it has to do with marketing. We are told we want new and new is better. If you buck the trend you risk becoming a social outcast. Fashions change over time. Why buy quality clothes when it will be out of fashion next year? A 1970s kitchen has the same appliances as a modern kitchen, ask your wives or girl friends if they would want avocado green, sunshine yellow, or burnt orange appliances. I am cheap, I am still using the small appliances my aunt gave me in 1985 when I first moved into my own apartment. My aunt didn't want them because they were old and didn't match anything.

 

[DCBC]

You can blame society but much of it has to do with marketing. We are told we want new and new is better. If you buck the trend you risk becoming a social outcast. Fashions change over time. Why buy quality clothes when it will be out of fashion next year?

By your definition, I'm a social outcast (and mainly practical). I don't buy into trends. Neither I nor my wife are clothes horses. Fashion in my mind is for the week minded, but that's another discussion... LOL

A 1970s kitchen has the same appliances as a modern kitchen, ask your wives or girl friends if they would want avocado green, sunshine yellow, or burnt orange appliances...

That wouldn't be a problem at all. In fact I wish I had the sunshine yellow appliances I use to have. That would have prevented me from having to replace them when they wore-out. Actually, they came with the house I purchased (I always purchase white). The original person that purchased them must have been a fashion animal, as the walls were also painted in trendy colors. BTW, the walls in my house are all white as well...

 

[TomZ]

What exactly is cheap life support gear? Given the litigious nature of America it would be absolutely foolish for a manufacturer to sell poor quality gear. An S600/MK-25 is a better breather than a R190/MK-2 but the cheaper regulator is not of poor quality. As a matter of fact it is probably more dependable than its expensive brother because it is less complicated.

Also there is a low correlation between latest and best. Up until the late 1990s Scubapro used metal air barrels in their barrel poppet regulators, G200B, G250, G500. Then with the new and improved G500 (which became the S-600) and G250 HP they switched to the plastic air barrel. Now they are going back to the metal air barrels again. They also went back and came up with an all metal regulator to take the place of the Balanced Adjustable.

Other than my definition of "cheap" we seem to be in agreement
If "cheap = low quality, that could be a variety of situations. Worn out, abused, damaged, or not of the best quality originally. I prefer my SP regs to the Sherwood Magnum set I bought new. The SP set was a steal at $100 on Craigslist and included a Wenoka knife, and Mares MR12 reg set to boot. Seemed frugal to me, and gave me a set of top-notch regs.

 

[fjpatrum]

It depends on what you want to base your cost value on. I never said and never meant to imply that expensive equipment is better than cheaper equipment based on cost. In the grand scheme of things, if I purchased an inexpensive regulator online for $270 instead of the more expensive Atomic Z2x for $509. The difference is $240. But, if you factored in the cost of yearly maintenance and service would be about $75 for labor and about $50-$75 for parts so essentially about $125-$150 every year to maintain a regulator. Assuming you follow factory recommendations and service your regulator once a year as opposed to every other year for Atomic official recommendations you are now spending over $100 every other year for maintenance. What you saved up front in the purchase cost comes around at the back end for maintenance. I also picked Atomic because they official market their regulators to have an every other year service schedule.

That being said, I've had the opportunity to dive both an Atomic Z2x and an T3. From my perspective they breath the same underwater. So I essentially would pay nearly 3 times the amount for a T3 but would not experience any difference in performance. More expensive isn't always better, but you have to take in consideration all factors not necessarily just what did I pay up front.

What about your "free parts for life" and the fact that many (not all) manufacturers are going to the same 2-year service interval? Also, even if the parts for the "cheap" reg cost the same as the Atomic, I have yet to find a kit that costs anywhere near $50-$75 for parts. (I don't buy expensive regs though... maybe that's why.) Either way, the cheap reg parts are going to be cheaper than the expensive reg parts, in my experience.

Your argument is inconsistent. But my point wasn't the cost of servicing, though that should be considered. My point was that you're unlikely to actually have to replace the cheaper reg any sooner than you would have to replace the expensive one. The argument that "you'll have to replace that in X years" is BS for almost all rec divers. I agree, if you're going tech, the right choice is to buy DIN versus yoke, but other than that the hype about "is your life worth it" is just that; hype. It's all marketing BS. There is very little breathing difference between modern regs from $200 to $1500.

If you're paying for the expensive one you really aren't paying for "quality" no matter what the marketing gurus will tell you. If you want to buy the brand name, that's a-okay with me, it's your money. Just don't do it believing that there is any significant quality difference and certainly don't do it thinking there is any safety difference.

As others have said, it's similar to cars. I drive a Honda... it works for me, I like it, and it does the job. My wife drives an Acura. Basically they are the same vehicle and provide the same function. One costs a premium though because of the name (and in cars, at least, a couple of nice features. Regs very rarely have any of those "nice features".)

 

[ams511]

Other than my definition of "cheap" we seem to be in agreement
If "cheap = low quality, that could be a variety of situations. Worn out, abused, damaged, or not of the best quality originally. I prefer my SP regs to the Sherwood Magnum set I bought new. The SP set was a steal at $100 on Craigslist and included a Wenoka knife, and Mares MR12 reg set to boot. Seemed frugal to me, and gave me a set of top-notch regs.

$100 for an MK20UL / S600 is an excellent deal. The first goes for more than that on eBay. I know I was looking for another one.

A MK25/S600 is a better breather than a Sherwood Magnum. The Sherwood second is a basic downstream regulator while the S600 is a barrel poppet design. A Magnum would be equivalent to a MK16/R295 in the Scubapro line. Although the MK16 is a diaphragm regulator while the Sherwood first is a piston.

Magnums are not cheap either, they are virtually bulletproof and the dry bleed keeps water out of the first stage without the need to pack the chamber with grease.

Besides the obvious abused and damaged equipment, I would also avoid house brands and generics, gear from out-of-business manufacturers and designs that are not industry standard. I am saying these are low quality but the are much riskier purchases than buying models with a long history from an established brand.

 

[freewillie]

I think the original point is still horribly elitist, and quite invalid.
Good gear can be found inexpensively while new, not just craigslist. Contrary to what some manufacturers and vendors would have you believe, just because it costs more doesn't mean it's better equipment.

If you want to pay an additional $1000 over the life of a regulator to keep a lifetime warranty be my guest, but I'd rather just take the risk of paying out of pocket for a material defect that would be covered, and not pay the extra service intervals.

I should apologize. I'm sorry I got a little snarky. I get a little frustrated sometimes and it was late and I was tired.

To be honest the cost of the regulator doesn't make it better or worse. I was previously diving an Atomic Z2x and it breaths exactly the same as its more expensive counterpart. For a number of different reasons including I happened to get some money from my late father's estate I wanted something special. If I had to pay out of my own pocket I'd would have gotten something less expensive. I did try to make the argument that when I travel the lighter materials make it better for the carry on but that didn't work on my wife either. I had to just come clean that I really just wanted it and not necessarily because it's better performing just more expensive.

On the other hand, still makes my point. We've been going back and forth about the cost of a piece of scuba equipment be it a regulator or flashlight. It's not about the cost or if it was less expensive on internet or ebay. Good scuba equipment is good equipment regardless of the price. And more expensive doesn't mean they perform better. The point is that we might save some money up front but still have other cost later on. And in the grand scheme of money we often focus smaller cost later and complain about that instead of looking at the overall cost in the big picture. Sort of looking at the forest for the trees so to speak. One shouldn't just focus on one particular point be it cost of purchase or cost of maintenance. They are all part of the big picture.