A Drysuit is a Drysuit is a Drysuit

[rhwestfall]

Sorry for a hijack, but the scent eliminator sprays (there may be "home remedies" - usually some derivative of baking soda and water) sold in hunting isles works wonders to eliminate bacteria growth and the subsequent stink.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Newbie here but had the same questions myself.Like you iam under water alot 3 to 5 hours.First 2 suits i used it was neoprene 4mm with neoprene neck and dry gloves.Fit wise was a step larger than my body.With only a 200gr fleece never felt colt.
My issue was the heavy weight (lead) i had to use for buoyancy.So bought a Fusion one and fit was great but to stay warm i had to use more insulation which on buoyancy translates exactly the same weight as the 4mm neoprene.

So order another neoprene drysuit this time 2mm.I will be diving for testing,hopefully this saturday or sunday and see if a 200gr fleece with less weight can keep me warm.

I was able to shed 8 lbs when I went from a shell suit to my current neoprene suit.

---------- Post added February 6th, 2014 at 08:07 PM ----------

I have been watching this thread evolve as I am very interested in what suits people like and why.

I have noticed a few responses that mentioned how they love their suit over previous choices, or two suits made by the same factory, while at the same time, never mentioning what that actual suit and manufacturer is.

What's up with that?

SEAC Warm Dry Drysuit [ds-warmdry] - $1,150.00 : Chipola Divers, Sidemount, Technical, & Cave Diving Instruction & Mentoring

---------- Post added February 6th, 2014 at 08:13 PM ----------

The downside with neoprene drysuits : Being too hot in a drysuit sucks. With a neoprene drysuit, you're forced to be hot.

With my Viking Extreme polyurethane shell suit, I can wear underarmor, 4th element xerotherm, 4th element arctic, or 4th element halo 3d or any combination of insulation depending on the water temperature. I'm fine in all temps from near freezing all the way up to tropical.

Not only that, but a shell suit with very little undergarment will require less lead than a neoprene or crushed neoprene type drysuit.

Then again, I prefer to rely on undergarments for insulation rather than the suit itself.

With my shell suit I used a 200 gram undergarment in 69 degree water. I now dive with a 4mm high density neoprene suit with a thin layer to keep the suit off my skin and use 8 lbs less. There's no way I could have gone with less than the 200 gram undergarment in the shell suit. As it was I was colder in that than I am in my neoprene suit. Also don't have an issue in the summer with the neoprene suit. I just pull the top off down to my waist and put a t shirt on.

---------- Post added February 6th, 2014 at 08:16 PM ----------

I guess I'm still not clear on the differences between neoprene and trilam suits. I thought that neoprene suits were more inherently warm, but that they didn't allow for as wide a range of undergarments since they were more tight fitting? I'm mainly looking for a suit good from the 50s down to 30s.

Extra features like great pockets, place for keys, boots that are easy to get on, are nice, but it seems weird that such minor features would warrant a price difference of $1000+. For that price the pockets better make me breakfast in bed too

For when a drysuit does flood, a little or a lot, how miserable is it? About the same as a wetsuit, or can it require the dive to be aborted?

I can wear a 200 gram undergarment under my neoprene suit if needed. That's the nice thing about neoprene. It stretches. When I dive 40 degree water I do use the 200 gram.

As for flooding, it depends on the water temperature. If you're in 40 degree water you will likely be aborting. In 69 degree water I can hang with my neoprene suit because I still have warmth. I've also flooded a shell suit in 69 degree water and had to abort because I was shivering.

---------- Post added February 6th, 2014 at 08:18 PM ----------

Neoprene suits...But they have buoyancy swings, are less insulating at depth, are heavier, take longer to dry, and generally can't be fitted with latex seals, which means no dry gloves.

Not true. Most neoprene suits are high density or crushed and depth has no effect on buoyancy or warmth. My current suit is also much lighter than my old shell suit. And it is quite easy to put latex seals on neoprene suits. All my previous neoprene suits had latex seals on them.

 

[WhiteSands]

Crushed neoprene, trilam, P-valves, changeable seals, dry gloves, dry hoods ... the list of options is baffling for a first timer! The price differences are especially confusing. What separates a $1000 entry drysuit, like the Scubapro, Pinnacle, or Whites, to a $3000 suit like Santi, Waterproof, or FE?

If you're pursuing tech, trilam is the only way to go, because it does not compress at depth. That eliminates a lot of candidates nicely for you.

P-valves are must haves. I will never again dive dry without wearing a catheter, after trying to hold my pee in on a "short" dive.

Changeable seals - I prefer to have them, because I don't want to spend thousands to fly to a dive site, and have a torn seal ruin everything. With changeable systems, you can change seals in the field if you accidentally tear them. If you're small sized you might not be able to use changeable neck seals.

Dry gloves - good option to have should you ever need them. The SiTech Antares system takes care of this and the changeable seals problem nicely. I like them, some people don't.

On what separates an entry level suit to a Santi, I'd have to say the fitting, comfort, well thought out design and attention to every small detail of the suit, quality of materials and construction and so on.

I love my Santi Emotion for these reasons:
- Very easy to don and doff quickly.
- Detachable suspenders (attention to detail, well thought through designs)
- Placement of pockets on the chest very near the zips for quick and easy retrieval of car keys (well thought through). I forgot something after putting on all my gear, and this saved me from having to remove the whole suit to get at my keys.
- Stretchable material
- Closeness of fit means minimum air bubble / easy dumping of air, and minimum folding of excess material for comfort when "squeezed" (Very important)
- Very comfortable to wear for a long time (Very important)
- Boots are very well designed and comfortable, and I can walk relatively long distances in it with no problems. In Catalina I wallked from my hotel to the dive site (quite a distance) in winter with no problems.
- Boots work well yet provide adequate space for thick arctic socks without mangling the feet. No discomfort to feet after 4 dives a day.
- Quick pull straps on the back of boots for easy donning (attention to detail, listening to customer feedback)
- Very soft kevlar knee pads for maximum comfort and maximum flexibility.
- Low maintenance and very tough plastic TZIPs. They can be folded, re-aligned if mis-aligned, etc. without damage to the zips. No need to lubricate them, except for the small area near the closing catch.
- The pockets, I love the pockets. I have not seen better designed ones, not even the Halcyon ones. Roomy, well compartmentalized, nice thick yellow bungee cords, separate section for wet notes, cookies, etc.
- The light weight. I travel to all dive sites, and the weight makes a big difference. A heavy suit is not fun to lug around. The Emotion is relatively light.

My only complaint is the bag is too big. It's a very nice quality bag, but I prefer something smaller, like a DUI, so that I can toss it into my luggage.

If the only purpose of a drysuit is to block out water, then so long as the seals are fitted properly a $3000 suit won't be warmer than a $1000 suit, right? Is the extra $ all about durability and design, or are you paying a brand name tax?

It's not that simple. The suit must be able to dump air easily. For that, the exhaust valves must be positioned correctly, and the suit cut to fit you perfectly. Some suit models put the valves at the "wrong place". If you cannot dump air when you need to, it may be dangerous at worse, inconvenient at best. A poorly designed suit may take you time to dump air, imagine every single dive waiting for the air bubble to travel very slowly to the dump valve and having to "chicken wing" it, vs. one which is quick to dump by just raising your arm.

A well designed suit makes your life that must easier every step of the way, from putting it on, diving with it, to taking it off, walking in it. With Santi at least, I think you pay for the design and quality of materials/construction. But there is a huge markup in the US though. They don't cost that much in some countries.

My instructor dives a brand name expensive drysuit, and it leaks all the time. His top undergarments are totally wet after each dive, and it's not the seals that is leaking. He still can't figure out where the leak is coming from. I don't think I want to deal with that. My Santi has never sprung a leak so far (touch wood) except for one time when I stupidly pulled opened the neck seal in water to "let in some air", as I normally do in the surface.

Right now I'm looking at Fourth Element's drysuit (rebranded Ursuit I believe), Waterproof's line, Hollis, and Santi. I really love how the Fourth Element looks, and am impressed by the quality of their other products, but the only place I could try one is 7 hours away. The other brands aren't too easy to try out, either; all the stores seem to just stock DUI.

I tried on the 4th Element and it is a nice looking suit. But the full kevlar one is heavy. Just something to be aware of.

 

[Vegan Shark]

Great post, WhiteSands.

Yeah, I checked out the kevlar Argonaut at Hollywood Divers and it felt like military armor. I'm interested in the cordura version, but not sure if FE is still making it.

For the dry-gloves and p-valve, can any LDS install them, or would I have to send it back to the manufacturer? (In case I end up with a suit I have to order online, which doesn't allow customizing on the site)

Also, how does the size charts work for dry suits? Do I have to try on my thickest intended undergarment, and then use those measurements? Or do I just go with my body measurements like I would with a wetsuit?

 

[TSandM]

With dry gloves, it depends on the system you select. Some mount directly on the seals, and that is easy to do yourself. Some glue to the suit, and you may or may not want to tackle that. Do give some thought to the system you choose . . . if the dry glove system jettisons the original seals on the suit, you are absolutely depending on the seal of the glove (and the integrity of the glove) to prevent a suit flood. I choose to keep my seals.

P-valves are easy to install on laminate suits. It took a bit more doing to get a waterproof install on my husband's compressed neo suit, and I think that's because of suit compression at depth. I have never installed one on a neoprene suit.

 

[rhwestfall]

how does the size charts work for dry suits? Do I have to try on my thickest intended undergarment, and then use those measurements? Or do I just go with my body measurements like I would with a wetsuit?

Depends on how many dry suits you want to own...

 

[Vegan Shark]

Just one for now

For dry gloves I was thinking of SiTech. If dry gloves would complicate things and increase risk of failures, I'll probably just stick with 5mm wet gloves for now, and wait until I get into diving in freezing waters. No way do I want to do a 4 hour dive without a P-valve, though.

Starting off with a $1000 suit (eying a Pinnacle Freedom 3 right now), and then going for a high end suit like Santi or FE in a couple years is starting to seem like a good option. That way I would have a backup suit too, so not really a waste of money.

How do bibbed hoods work with dry suits? I'm guessing tucking the bib into the neck seal is a big no-no, so is there a place on the suit to tuck in the extra fabric? Part of me has trouble believing neck seals are truly water proof. My FE semi-dry has a very tight neck seal (any tighter and I'd be paranoid about passing out mid-dive) but water still gets in inevitably.

 

[rhwestfall]

suites like those made by DUI have a "warm collar", which is essentially a pocket on the outside of the suit that the bib tucks into. Nice for really cold. I can't imagine diving the waters i do with a non-bib hood (but I use one with my WS). I can honestly say that I have not gotten any leakage from the neck on my DS. You just need to make sure it was sized correctly, and put on smooth...

I've always dove wet gloves. I'm in the process of looking into something else like the Dry5 as i don't want to change my seals until I need to (and then it will likely be zips).

 

[FoxHound]

Ive never used a bib hood with my drysuit. Just a non bibbed one. Fine in sub zero water temps under the ice for an hour or 2 at a time. I see no point to a bib, the reg hood covers my neck fine, then the drysuit undies take over.

As for cheap vs expensive i tend to disagree with some of the comments here. Expensive does not always mean better. Ive seen some pretty shotty craftsmenship on some of the so called high end brands.

You want something that fits you and is comfortable.

Shell vs neo....personal preference. I hate neo suits, i dont find them comfortable and too hot for when the water gets warmer here. I prefer shell suits where all the thermal protection is based on what i wear for an undergarment. Allows me to dive high 70s water to below freezing.

Again its personal preference. What works for me may not for you. Try before buy!

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

If you're pursuing tech, trilam is the only way to go, because it does not compress at depth. That eliminates a lot of candidates nicely for you.

The notion of neoprene compressing and become unsuitable in depths has already been addressed. There is compression resistant neoprene (CR grade) and flattened neoprene. I have found that even neoprene compressed at depth is warmer than tri-lam material. DUI CF 200 is a perfect example of that. Neoprene in that suit has been flattened on surface so it does not flatten at depth. It still offers significantly better insulation than tri-lams. In extreme pressures a neoprene suit will compress and become what CF 200 is.

---------- Post added February 7th, 2014 at 10:13 PM ----------

I test dove a Santii in 38 degrees and the undergarment it was needing to keep me warm was a lot more than what my 3mm neoprene needs. For me this was a major disqualification. Since it is my intention to dive in the Arctic sometime (hopefully) I was communicating gear requirements with Arctic tour operators. All three tour operators seemed to have a strong preference for neoprene over shell and I could see why.

For those who love Santii but cant afford it should also look at Techniflex by USIA. The material is similar and both suits had a similar feel to them but one costed more than a thousand over the other. If there were no neoprene suits in the world and I was forced to dive a shell suit then it would be a USIA techniflex.