A Drysuit is a Drysuit is a Drysuit

[WhiteSands]

Great post, WhiteSands.

Yeah, I checked out the kevlar Argonaut at Hollywood Divers and it felt like military armor. I'm interested in the cordura version, but not sure if FE is still making it.

For the dry-gloves and p-valve, can any LDS install them, or would I have to send it back to the manufacturer? (In case I end up with a suit I have to order online, which doesn't allow customizing on the site)

Also, how does the size charts work for dry suits? Do I have to try on my thickest intended undergarment, and then use those measurements? Or do I just go with my body measurements like I would with a wetsuit?

I guess it depends on the skillset of the people at the LDS. There is no general answer. My p valve was installed by LDS, everything else by Santi. But mine was a MTM suit so I could choose every option.

I measured without undergarments and they turned out fine. Santi makes allowances. But I would recommend putting on the thickest undergarment then either trying on a standard sized suit or measuring for MTM.

I bought 4th element undies for the ease of maintenance.

---------- Post added February 9th, 2014 at 08:47 AM ----------

Another thing that separates cheaper suits from more costly ones is the knowledge of fitting clothing to the human body. I was measured at so many locations the process took quite long. But the results and estimation for allowances for undergarments was superb. The folks at Santi really know their work.

---------- Post added February 9th, 2014 at 09:03 AM ----------

The notion of neoprene compressing and become unsuitable in depths has already been addressed. There is compression resistant neoprene (CR grade) and flattened neoprene. I have found that even neoprene compressed at depth is warmer than tri-lam material. DUI CF 200 is a perfect example of that. Neoprene in that suit has been flattened on surface so it does not flatten at depth. It still offers significantly better insulation than tri-lams. In extreme pressures a neoprene suit will compress and become what CF 200 is.

---------- Post added February 7th, 2014 at 10:13 PM ----------

I test dove a Santii in 38 degrees and the undergarment it was needing to keep me warm was a lot more than what my 3mm neoprene needs. For me this was a major disqualification. Since it is my intention to dive in the Arctic sometime (hopefully) I was communicating gear requirements with Arctic tour operators. All three tour operators seemed to have a strong preference for neoprene over shell and I could see why.

For those who love Santii but cant afford it should also look at Techniflex by USIA. The material is similar and both suits had a similar feel to them but one costed more than a thousand over the other. If there were no neoprene suits in the world and I was forced to dive a shell suit then it would be a USIA techniflex.

Trilam has no insulation properties at all. So you are absolutely right to say neoprene suits are warmer than trilam when compressed at depth. With a trilam all insulation comes from the undergarments. How warm they are and how much they compress really depends on which undergarments you choose, regardless of which brand of trilam suit you wear. The 4th element Halo for eg has structural "beams" to prevent compression.

What undergarments were you using with the trilam suit? It might have affected your experience.

 

[Dive-aholic]

If you're pursuing tech, trilam is the only way to go, because it does not compress at depth.

Really? That's interesting. I've done a bunch of deep dives in my neoprene dry suit with no issues whatsoever. Been to 300' a few times in it. My suit did not only not compress (because it's high density neoprene and won't compress) but it also kept me warm.

I don't understand why people are making these blanket statements about neoprene suits that are simply not true.

 

[Slamfire]

I have 2 dry suits: an older neoprene Brooks that still performs flawlessly and a Whites Fusion Bullet. I use the Fusion on deep tech dives only because it has one more pocket and the pockets are bigger. That said I've taken the Brooks to at least 150 ft in Canadian waters. I honestly have not felt the loss of thermal insulation I'm supposed to feel. I cannot say that I feel warmer in one or the other. They both work fine at any depth. The Fusion might have a better range of mobility during summer dives when I use slightly thinner layers of undergarments.

As for pee valves, I don't use them. When I think I might need to, I use diapers. When I was starting to do longer multi gas Deco dives I was thinking of installing pee valves and a friend suggested I try diapers instead. Not every body feels comfortable in them, but you can't undo a hole in your suit if you find a p valve is not for you. The plan was to try diapers first and if I didn't like them, I was going to proceed to a p valve. The most parsimonious solution is usually the better one.

 

[FoxHound]

Really? That's interesting. I've done a bunch of deep dives in my neoprene dry suit with no issues whatsoever. Been to 300' a few times in it. My suit did not only not compress (because it's high density neoprene and won't compress) but it also kept me warm.

I don't understand why people are making these blanket statements about neoprene suits that are simply not true.

Agreed, drysuits are all about personal preference and being comfortable. What works for one may not for another


Sent from my HTC One X

 

[scububa]

I'll chime in here and acknowledge I have limited cross suit experience. Fit is critical and I have dove in a couple loaner/rental suits and they were too big and miserable. I own a DUI CLX450. It has held up very well for 8 yrs and I had the zipper replaced about a year ago. I have aquasealed a couple of spots on the feet (I wear external Rock Boots.) I am not indicating I think this is the best suit in the world, but it has worked well for me. Some if it's characteristics are both strong and weak points for it.

It is a hardy suit and has held up rubbing against rocks in the spring pool gearing up for dives and against rusty metal in wrecks. And, also against all the gear rubbing contact. But, I am not a mega dive count guy like Rob (and I am sure others). It is dry with the leaking coming from wrist seals. I have the dreaded deep tendon channel and as I am often fiddling with stages and other gear, I will tend to develop leaks there.

Thinks I like -
Dependable and durable (in addition to holding up well, it still looks great ;-)
Accommodates my diving variety from FL caves to MO caves and lakes to the Great Lakes diving I have done. Either when I investigated suits the neo didn't have as much flexibility for insulation variations OR I just wasn't smart enough to know I was being mislead by the prevalent comments. I do like being able to go from light to heavy insulation, but it sounds as some of the neo suits provide this now. It would be a major requirement for me as I don't dive the same set of conditions exclusively.
Zip seals - allows recovering from a tear on the spot (and I do carry spares) and allows me to go from gloves to seals. I know there are other approaches that also allow this and again, that function is important to me.
Pockets are large and have held up well
Front entry (certainly not a DUI only feature ;-)
And, I am a pee valve guy and installed my own. I think punching that hole was one of the hardest things I have done in diving


Things I don't like -
It is too heavy and bulky to travel with other than in a vehicle. Mostly I drive because of all the other gear, but I dove wet in North Carolina because flying with it added too much to the baggage. And, if I wanted to go to Australia to dive, I am not sure if I'd try and take it.
It takes a long while to dry. Again, this complicates the travel thing.
It isn't as flexible as a TLS350, etc.
The zip seals with gloves don't have a wrist back up if the glove tears.
Even though it is a Sig Series custom, it is not a cave cut to allow for all the insulation changes I make. The downside is that it isn't the most hydrodynamic.

So, as much as I like it if I ever need to replace it I'd look to improve weight, stream line fit and back up to the gloves (which I could probably do to this suit.)

Anyway, that's my experience, admittedly limited.

 

[Polari]

Update:
I bought a CF200 which is 1mm neoprene and installed northern diver dry gloves on.Dived with a lavacore full undersuit for 2 hours and 30min.I wasn't warm as the 4mm drysuit but not cold either.Next dive i will do 3-4 hours and see if can keep me warm on longer times.
The good news is that i am lighter by 5kg (no joke)


Another one factor i think was the size of the suit.This time i choose the Large instead XL so was a bit on the small side.Which is excellent because the drysuit now fits like wetsuit.No bulky or spare neoprene hanging around.

 

[Stoo]

I would surmise that the majority of leaks are caused by user error (donning or care).

Nope... Sometimes build quality just isn't there... And this varies suit to suit, more than brand to brand. These things are essentially hand made, do if "Guido the Seam Stitcher" is having a bad day, you're going to end up wet...

 

[NAM001]

My 2 cents. Dry suits have few atributes to them. More than wet suits of course, but few just the same. If you are going to dive doubles, you will have to deal with the bouyancy swing and suit compression.

In my opinion look for a suit that has no suit compression with depth. As long as all goes well the suit will be superior in compression effects till the suit floods. Shell suits fit that catagory
Since you dont have compression you have no insulation, Insulation will cost you what ever you want it to. You can do a james bond and wear a tux under it or spend 50-1000 for undergarments of one form or another. I chose polar stretch and am dabbling with some other options. One set of undies does not fit all. Every hole is a potential leak. My suit has attached booties to illiminate 2 of the five holes. Seals... make them soft and dive site replacable. I use ZIP seals. Size mattters. reduce the available space that air can travel around the suit. This is not an anal process but you dont use the same suit to dive the 28 degree artic as you use in 55 degree water. Pick the suit that suts the diving you are doing. Full Trilam may not be the optimal choice if you are doing wreck diving. Get a Pee valve. Even if you dont use it now. get one or be skilled enough to put it in your self later. I am using a DUI tls350. Works great, light , confortable, has never leaked. I do not use it a lot and many say tls suits are major leakers. Codura is a rugged durable material. outstanding for knees and elbows. Great material for wreck diving where you want extra cut and tear prevention. It is much stiffer than trilam. Lastly front or rear entry is a biggy. There are pros adn cons to both. Mine is a front entry. I can still don it my self.

 

[Belce]

My new suit is a tri laminate and it stretches. I have included a picture so that you can see it fits close. A lot of the new tri-lam suits these days stretch. Besides this Santi, 4th Element and Bare are examples of manufacturers with tri-lam suits that stretch. As previously mentioned a lot of time and thought has gone into the design of this suit.



The suit above is a made to measure suit. I am 5'4" with a 42" chest short arms and legs and something like that doesn't come off the rack. So what you want to look at is the lower leg and forearm and at those points there is not extra material. It is extra material at those places that can be used to keep air. You can also turn the suit inside out and look at the more than great work on all the seams. Not only are the seams great, the work is 100% consistent throughout the suit. When the tape on the interior seam ends it is done with a rounded cut so that there are no corners to dog ear over time.

Also your insulator needs air and loft to keep you warm, but once you have achieved that more air will not keep you warmer. Air is actually very bad as an insulator as it gains and looses heat very quickly. A good guide for this would be to float at the surface with your exhaust valve open and that is close to an ideal loft for your thermals. Your BCD is the primary means to adjust your buoyancy as it works better doing what it was designed for. Add air to the suit to relieve the squeeze and loft your thermals is enough.

 

[Stratosphere272]

My 2 cents: I've been diving dry since 1991. I've owned pretty much every type of suit: vulcanized, crushed neoprene, neoprene, and shell. The easiest suit to dive is neoprene. With lightweight underwear it's much like diving a wet suit but you're dry. Neoprene seems the least durable. My White's shell suit was serviceable and easy to use. My main criticism is that the smooth inner surface got a lot of condensation on it. With no fabric lining this condensate all soaked into the underwear. The DUI crushed neoprene suits hold up well, I still have my first one from 1991 and also bought a used suit made in 1987. They have the normal wear and tear but continue to soldier on. My biggest complaint is that they take a long time to dry, possibly days in humid Summer weather. This means that patching them in the field may not be practical. My current favorite is a Gates (Hunter) heavy weight vulcanized suit. Heavy is the operate word here, it seems intended for commercial use. It dries rapidly and is easy to patch in the field.

As for accessories: in my book and dive that rates a dry suit also rates dry gloves. Maintaining dexterity in colder water is wonderful. I also favor attached dry hoods for extra warmth and to keep water out of my ears. Attached pockets are a very popular option, although I don't favor them. A relief zipper seems like just another point of failure. I started out wearing diapers under the dry suit, switched to a pee valve, and later switched back to diapers. Many opinions on this subject and my current choice is in the minority, but whatever you find to work best for you is the correct choice.