A somewhat sad conversation last night

[Thalassamania]

Thal, you have proved time after time that you actually have no interest in GUE/DIR other than to try and poke holes in it. If you actually have any questions then I am happy to answer them for you, I can't promise that you'll like the answers, nor do I expect you to change anything, or do anything differently to what you currently do. But if you want a GUE answer then I will do my best to provide it.

When I have current questions I call JJ or AG, their answers are almost always clear and concise. Historical questions I usually refer to JJ or Dan Volker. But ... thanks for the offer.

On the mask front, GUE suggest a low-profile simple mask. So an oversized oval front mask doesn't fit the bill.

HTH
John

Actually, the volume of a Swimmaster Wideview, when in use, is about the same as most current "low-profile" masks, since the neoprene skirt sits back, the hognose makes room for your beak, and the glass plate sits very close to your eyes.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Our little group of GUE divers has a standing set of dives on Wednesday night. A bunch of us get together, and anybody who wants to join us is invited to do so. We get a fair number of newer divers, who enjoy the opportunity to go out with some experienced and solid folks. One of our recent companions is a young man who moved to Seattle rather recently. He is, as we all understand and empathize with, dive-mad, and has been getting out about every other day to dive somewhere, with someone.

He went to dinner with us last night. And he told me, over dinner, that before he moved to Seattle, he'd had a very negative impression of DIR divers -- which he said he had largely gotten off SCUBABOARD. He also said that, of all the people he's dived with since he's moved up here, our group is the nicest one . . . and the MOST FUN to dive with.

I thought it was incredibly sad that he had gotten such a bad impression of DIR people from this board. And I wanted to offer his impression, now that he's MET us, so that other newer divers who have gotten the same impression might know that at least one person has concluded he was wrong.

Such is the "elitism" and "exceptionalism" of DIR/GUE. Originally IMO, the reason for the rigorous training & standards was to develop a pool of highly qualified & competent support divers to draw upon for the exploration dives of the WKPP.

A better analogy to GUE as dive agency for a particular mission -as well as few of their attitudes- is the US Navy/Marine Corps: Pass GUE Fundamentals "Boot Camp" and you're a part of the "few & the proud" -- the Marines. Pass tech & cave levels and you're in Force Recon. If you and your team are doing special or unique explorations in demanding environments, then you're a SEAL Team 6 Operative.

To be a good recreational diver (qualitatively & socially) you don't necessarily have to go through such a regimen; just find a good instructor & mentor, a friendly group divers to buddy up with (like Lynne's group above) and go have some fun. . . !

Similarly & rhetorically, if you only want to get a private pilot's training & license --do you have to join the US Navy/Marine Corps to become a Navy/Marine Aviator???

 

[mdb]

Kevrumbo:

Not a bad analogy. As a former Marine I might add that all Marines wear the same uniform without special shoulder patches for this or that.

I was a Marine Artillery officer. First, like all Marine officers, Lawyers, future pilots, supply officers, etc. We were first trained as Infantry Officers.
When I served the officers basic training was 36 weeks before going to specialty schools. Basic enlisted training was 10 wks. It is now 12.

I believe that shortened courses and minimum skill levels to be certified have significantly damaged diving. A competent basic diver will be able to
take care of themselves from the first dive on their own. Further training and more skill sets are certainly a plus. I do not think any one agency has
the upper hand on this, although, some may think they do. I do think some agencies have dumped down training to a level that needs to be reset.

For me it has always been about the instructor and his/her course. I have been very fortunate to have been a student with some very gifted and
dedicated instructors.

 

[BrotherBear]

Our little group of GUE divers has a standing set of dives on Wednesday night. A bunch of us get together, and anybody who wants to join us is invited to do so. We get a fair number of newer divers, who enjoy the opportunity to go out with some experienced and solid folks. One of our recent companions is a young man who moved to Seattle rather recently. He is, as we all understand and empathize with, dive-mad, and has been getting out about every other day to dive somewhere, with someone.

He went to dinner with us last night. And he told me, over dinner, that before he moved to Seattle, he'd had a very negative impression of DIR divers -- which he said he had largely gotten off SCUBABOARD. He also said that, of all the people he's dived with since he's moved up here, our group is the nicest one . . . and the MOST FUN to dive with.

I thought it was incredibly sad that he had gotten such a bad impression of DIR people from this board. And I wanted to offer his impression, now that he's MET us, so that other newer divers who have gotten the same impression might know that at least one person has concluded he was wrong.

So, your implied question was why would someone have such a negative impression of DIR? The answer is right here in this thread...not in the individual posts but the thread itself. For whatever reason the subject has a polarizing effect and attracts controversy like flys (17 pages and climbing fast!). In reading this thread I see both sides of the fence engaging in vitriol and specious arguments to satisfy personal vendettas. We even have our fearless leader in here joining in an ongoing argument that is clearly in violation of the TOS for this sub-forum!!
Most newbies to this subject are coming in from the outside are going to be drawn to one side or the other and are either going to embrace DIR or hate it. Over-generalized to be sure but in any case that is human nature...if there is no apparent middle ground among the forum members then where is a newbie to stand?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

BTW, you're always going to have a competing group(s) trying to compare themselves with you looking for you to ADMIT that they are just as good. I don't know that I have a good handle on what makes them want to do this but it could be as simple as professional jealousy. I can't tell you how many times I have heard that this or that forum are better or just as good as ScubaBoard, but if our popularity is any indication then most of those insights are clearly faulty.

Diving's not a contest ... neither is posting on the Internet. It's something we do for fun.

I don't care who thinks they're better than me. Who knows ... they might be right.

Why should it matter? Some of the most fun people I dive with aren't nearly as skilled as people I know who I wouldn't want to dive with.

Who's better? Depends on whether you're judging by skill set or by who you can have the most fun spending a few hours with ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[FoxHound]

Diving's not a contest ... neither is posting on the Internet. It's something we do for fun.

I don't care who thinks they're better than me. Who knows ... they might be right.

Why should it matter? Some of the most fun people I dive with aren't nearly as skilled as people I know who I wouldn't want to dive with.

Who's better? Depends on whether you're judging by skill set or by who you can have the most fun spending a few hours with ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Can we get this as a sticky? Well said, wish there were more out there with the same attitude!

 

[Griffo]

BTW, you're always going to have a competing group(s) trying to compare themselves with you looking for you to ADMIT that they are just as good. I don't know that I have a good handle on what makes them want to do this but it could be as simple as professional jealousy. I can't tell you how many times I have heard that this or that forum are better or just as good as ScubaBoard, but if our popularity is any indication then most of those insights are clearly faulty.

It's called Cognitive Dissonance. It's a well known psychological phenomenon. It explains the "fanboi" syndrome you often see on the web.

Cognitive dissonance

(The original article won't load for me, so I hope this one does)

 

[Roko]

I think the problem is anytime someone thinks in absolutes, it destroys any possibility for actual useful discussion. Diving isn't binary, there's a possiblity for more than 2 states

The GUE system is a system which works very well for rectreational dives (I won't comment on Tech, since I don't have experience there), allowing for fun, safe dive with a cohesive team. The GUE system works for me so far, and I like it, but ultimately it's just a way to dive, not the only way to dive safely and have fun. At the recreational level, one can dive within the GUE system, and just as easiliy dive with non-GUE divers if they so choose -- Hopefully poor attitudes don't prevent people from doing that, because they cut out a great pool of potential dive buddies who are just as safe and can be attentive buddies, even if the dive team is not technically "DIR"...

 

[stevensamler]

UTD has a dive program called essentials of recreational diving which i would like to take instead of taking an aow class through the usual agencies. I could be wrong but i think an open water diver looking for more training but not the full on tech training would really benefit from such a class.

 

[Centrals]

Our little group of GUE divers has a standing set of dives on Wednesday night. A bunch of us get together, and anybody who wants to join us is invited to do so. We get a fair number of newer divers, who enjoy the opportunity to go out with some experienced and solid folks. One of our recent companions is a young man who moved to Seattle rather recently. He is, as we all understand and empathize with, dive-mad, and has been getting out about every other day to dive somewhere, with someone.

He went to dinner with us last night. And he told me, over dinner, that before he moved to Seattle, he'd had a very negative impression of DIR divers -- which he said he had largely gotten off SCUBABOARD. He also said that, of all the people he's dived with since he's moved up here, our group is the nicest one . . . and the MOST FUN to dive with.

I thought it was incredibly sad that he had gotten such a bad impression of DIR people from this board. And I wanted to offer his impression, now that he's MET us, so that other newer divers who have gotten the same impression might know that at least one person has concluded he was wrong.

It doesn't surprise me at all.
My first ever impression with GUE/DIR was pretty NEGATIVE back in around 2001/2. The subsequent exposure made it even worst. So I just avoid them.
Scuba diving answer to "7th Day Adventists"!!!!! A very sarcastic comment from certain UK's quarter but "fairly" accurate nevertheless.
Is GUE/DIR for everyone? Well certainly it is NOT everyone's cup of tea.