A somewhat sad conversation last night

[Crush]

I think the problem is anytime someone thinks in absolutes, it destroys any possibility for actual useful discussion. Diving isn't binary, there's a possiblity for more than 2 states.

To my limited experience GUE is binary. It is their way or the highway. I don't disapprove, but that is the way it is. I had to remove some D-rings from my BP&W shoulder straps prior to taking Fundies since I was not trained to carry extra tanks so the D-rings would therefore pose an entanglement hazard. However, my crotch strap had 2 D-rings and, despite the fact that I am not trained to use a DPV, these are not viewed as entanglement hazards...

 

[Roko]

To my limited experience GUE is binary. It is their way or the highway. I don't disapprove, but that is the way it is. I had to remove some D-rings from my BP&W shoulder straps prior to taking Fundies since I was not trained to carry extra tanks so the D-rings would therefore pose an entanglement hazard. However, my crotch strap had 2 D-rings and, despite the fact that I am not trained to use a DPV, these are not viewed as entanglement hazards...

You're correct that GUE is very much binary, either you're doing it the GUE way, or you're not. I was refering more to the overall diving world, in that the GUE way isn't the only way to safely execute a dive.

I know that rigidity in the GUE system turns a lot of people off from it. (My girlfriend still makes fun of me)

 

[PfcAJ]

To my limited experience GUE is binary. It is their way or the highway. I don't disapprove, but that is the way it is. I had to remove some D-rings from my BP&W shoulder straps prior to taking Fundies since I was not trained to carry extra tanks so the D-rings would therefore pose an entanglement hazard. However, my crotch strap had 2 D-rings and, despite the fact that I am not trained to use a DPV, these are not viewed as entanglement hazards...

DIR diving revolves around the quite practical 'if you don't need it, don't take it' idea. You don't need more than the standard d-rings if you're diving in a DIR style. I did a dive a few weeks ago that involved 7 (seven) stage bottles and two scooters without the need for any extra d-rings. Learning how to dive with the required equipment is kind of implied upon requesting GUE training, is it not?

The rear d-ring is used for storage of reels and SMBs, and occasionally scooters (I prefer the front), and the front one is usually sewn in, so its kind of pointless to remove it for one dive, only to put it back on another. If you're concerned with it getting caught on stuff or damaging the environment, a small rubberband (like for the backup lights) works well to keep it from getting in the way.

If you decide that extra drings are how you like to roll, go nuts. No one is forcing anything on you. The courses simply teach how we operate, that's all. If one isn't interested in learning that, why sign up for it?

 

[txaggie08]

You want to know something the system doesn't work fine for?

I could very quickly show you another....public safety diving. However, you apparently only read the first line of my post, quoted it quite randomly, and ignored what I actually said....

 

[BluewaterSail]

DIR diving revolves around the quite practical 'if you don't need it, don't take it' idea. You don't need more than the standard d-rings if you're diving in a DIR style. I did a dive a few weeks ago that involved 7 (seven) stage bottles and two scooters without the need for any extra d-rings. Learning how to dive with the required equipment is kind of implied upon requesting GUE training, is it not?

The rear d-ring is used for storage of reels and SMBs, and occasionally scooters (I prefer the front), and the front one is usually sewn in, so its kind of pointless to remove it for one dive, only to put it back on another. If you're concerned with it getting caught on stuff or damaging the environment, a small rubberband (like for the backup lights) works well to keep it from getting in the way.

If you decide that extra drings are how you like to roll, go nuts. No one is forcing anything on you. The courses simply teach how we operate, that's all. If one isn't interested in learning that, why sign up for it?

Rather than going through the trouble of removing a crotch strap d-ring on a dive that it won't be used, or playing with rubber bands, its real easy to run the crotch strap though it, basically putting it inside rather than outside.

 

[TSandM]

Wow -- we are really running the gamut here, from people who object to a trade name that isn't even used any more, to people who want to argue about the fine points of the gear configuration, to people who can't stand us because WE subscribe to a standardized gear setup that we don't insist anybody else in the world dive, unless they want to

I spent a day on a dive boat today in Hood Canal. I had a GUE buddy with me, and we did two really fun dives. We were on a boat with an AOW class, and the glowing faces of those new divers were an absolute delight to see. What it comes down to is that diving is fun; diving well is more fun, and people who are really committed divers tend to be fun, too! Which was my point in starting the thread

 

[Heath Sapp]

I to will say I got a pm from a DIR diver told me that I was a PADI diver so I was not a diver, and wanted to find a way to make myself a better diver. After that P.M. I was very unhappy DIR. After reading this thread maybe I need to do some homework just to find out more!

 

[gsk3]

To my limited experience GUE is binary. It is their way or the highway. I don't disapprove, but that is the way it is. I had to remove some D-rings from my BP&W shoulder straps prior to taking Fundies since I was not trained to carry extra tanks so the D-rings would therefore pose an entanglement hazard. However, my crotch strap had 2 D-rings and, despite the fact that I am not trained to use a DPV, these are not viewed as entanglement hazards...

This view quickly fades as you move past Fundies. And I'm not sure that the crotch strap d-rings are the best example, since they have all sorts of uses even for rec dives.

 

[The Chairman]

Wow -- we are really running the gamut here,

One should always be careful for what they ask for!

Feedback is a gift, a blessing and sometimes a curse. The thread was started with a mere observation, but there are a number of people with strong feelings on the subject willing to explain their respective perspectives. Given the controversy and even the resultant acrimony of a few, I am not sure that this is the proper forum for this thread, but it is here and things seem to be civil for the most part. Good enough.

The onus then is to determine what is to be done with the feedback. Ignore, embrace or change are three valid responses. Bob suggests that he doesn't care who thinks they are better than him and that diving is not a contest. The "we vs them" attitude expressed by many DIR devotees would seem to belie that sentiment and in fact I have seen Bob as well as TSandM go out of their way to dispel the myths they perceive. You do care, it shows and that's a good thing. I have seen the changes in both of these divers over the years that's a direct result of their caring. They are the finest ambassadors DIR/GUE/UTD could ask for. Add Lamont and you have the three natural leaders of the DIR mindset here on ScubaBoard.

Still and in spite of their efforts, there are a number of people with a really negative perception of DIR and it's various denominations. Some of these are so ingrained and the perceived slights so impossible to right that nothing can be done to correct it. Some are merely a vague feeling of what others have said and yes, some are even legitimate and pointed criticisms about the way things are done and decided. Unfortunately it's not really up to our three leaders to effect changes at the top. That's for JJ and AG among others and even then that kind of change may possibly defeat the original intent of being DIR.

Lest my musings be misconstrued, I have no problems with the DIR mindset. I have dove and will dive again with people who have DIR/GUE/UTD mindsets and I love reading their posts here on ScubaBoard. In fact, you can find me in some of the earlier GUE promotional videos on the net. I've even kidded with JJ that I am their token "Strokes Person". That's not to say that I have always felt this way. I had to come to my own peace when it comes to DIR. It took a dispassionate review of all that seems to encompass the mindset. While I feel no need to go down that path, I do admire most of those who have. Why not? They are great divers and fun to be around.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I to will say I got a pm from a DIR diver told me that I was a PADI diver so I was not a diver, and wanted to find a way to make myself a better diver. After that P.M. I was very unhappy DIR. After reading this thread maybe I need to do some homework just to find out more!

I once worked at a shop that offered GUE classes. I was working as a NAUI instructor, teaching on contract through the shop. I once heard the store manager telling one of my students that they shouldn't waste their money on NAUI classes ... that if they wanted to really learn about diving, they should take a GUE class.

For sure I was unhappy about it. I could've used it as an excuse to assume that GUE was at fault. But by then I knew enough about GUE to know better. The manager was a jerk. He was a jerk before he ever heard of GUE. He's still a jerk. His attitude wasn't the agency's fault ... it was his. There were plenty of other GUE-trained people coming through that shop ... including instructors ... who weren't like that. Why blame them for someone else's bad attitude?

I've also experienced it from the other side ... people looking at my equipment, assuming I must be one of those damned DIR divers, and giving me a hard time. I had a PADI instructor do just that rather publicly at a DUI Dog Days event a few years ago. The idiot didn't even realize that not everyone in a backplate chooses their training from the same agency. To my concern, he was just as much a jerk as the store manager was.

They're everywhere, yanno ... and GUE is no more responsible for the actions of the former than PADI is for the actions of the latter.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)