A somewhat sad conversation last night

[redacted]

Perhaps... Depends on whether the instructor decided to stop teaching GUE-F or whether GUE made him stop pissing off students.

Either way, when GUE sends me a check for $2,000 to cover the costs of my wasted trips to Florida for the GUE-F course, then I might consider trying GUE again. I admire the GUE philosophy, and strive to attain their standards. Too bad the GUE folks behave so badly.

First rule of scuba.

 

[The Chairman]

While a good, even a great reputation is easy to lose, a bad reputation/impression is hard if not impossible to outlive. On top of that, the misdeeds of only one or a few are often all people need to make or continue that reputation/impression. Is it fair? Nope. Is it a forgone conclusion that DIR will always be saddled with an onerous reputation? Perhaps.

In any event, it's important to accept that reputations are earned. In doing so, it's also important to identify what actions and individuals are responsible for a particular impression and then it's up to the group or individual to do something about it. Make no mistake, I encounter a lot of the same less than flattering attitudes when it comes to many divers' impression of ScubaBoard. For the most part, ScubaBoard is incredibly friendly and helpful but there are a few elements who create a dissonance by creating problems. I have spent years trying to cultivate a kinder, gentler ScubaBoard and have had a bit of success in doing so. To do that, I have had to listen to my critics and embrace what they are telling me. It's hard not to rail against misguided rationals but it's mostly counterproductive. Look at the responses to BlueJayKaren. Do they really address her concerns or are they laced with with an attitude that blames HER for her impression? I have learned and am still learning that it's wrong to kill the messenger. Look at the OP. She would really like to turn this around rather than to live by that bitter river of Denial. Rather than attack the fact that someone has a less than stellar impression of DIR divers, look a little deeper and learn why. Of course, if you don't care that they have this bad opinion then simply continue on. My feelings are that most DIR divers care very much and their participation here is evidence of that.

BTW, you're always going to have a competing group(s) trying to compare themselves with you looking for you to ADMIT that they are just as good. I don't know that I have a good handle on what makes them want to do this but it could be as simple as professional jealousy. I can't tell you how many times I have heard that this or that forum are better or just as good as ScubaBoard, but if our popularity is any indication then most of those insights are clearly faulty.

 

[bleeb]

Can we please concentrate on the question at hand, and have a little less vitriol and personal comments when people try to post examples of how they've had negative experiences with the DIR community? Way too much of that, especially in the recent parts of this thread.

 

[Thalassamania]

Our little group of GUE divers has a standing set of dives on Wednesday night. A bunch of us get together, and anybody who wants to join us is invited to do so. We get a fair number of newer divers, who enjoy the opportunity to go out with some experienced and solid folks. One of our recent companions is a young man who moved to Seattle rather recently. He is, as we all understand and empathize with, dive-mad, and has been getting out about every other day to dive somewhere, with someone.

He went to dinner with us last night. And he told me, over dinner, that before he moved to Seattle, he'd had a very negative impression of DIR divers -- which he said he had largely gotten off SCUBABOARD. He also said that, of all the people he's dived with since he's moved up here, our group is the nicest one . . . and the MOST FUN to dive with.

I thought it was incredibly sad that he had gotten such a bad impression of DIR people from this board. And I wanted to offer his impression, now that he's MET us, so that other newer divers who have gotten the same impression might know that at least one person has concluded he was wrong.

I think that we've just had a rather clear display of how it is quite possible to rather quickly develop both a jaundiced and inaccurate impression of DIR.

Thal, I still don't understand why you need to get public approval from DIR/GUE divers about edge conditions like your mask modification.

And I think all the people reacting to you were evaluating your proposal more on the axe you were grinding, less on any actual merit, which is the problem that you've got which you still don't seem to see.

What need? What proposal? What ax?

I brought this up, once again, years later, for the sole purpose of illustrating the problem that Lynne's friend had described. Thank you for your assistance in the demonstration, it was unexpected, but is both classic and spot on.

I've got to respond to this. Thal, you have some very fixed ideas, and for some reason you feel the need to try and get them approved as "DIR". Sticking stuff in your mask is still not DIR. Sorry about that. If you want to do it, then that's fine, fill your boots, but that doesn't and won't make it DIR. The reason I didn't reply then, and haven't replied about it until now is that I couldn't be bothered as it was like being hit in the head by a brick wall continuously.

I think the only person seeing Venom was you, I had no anger, nor any fear of what you were saying, it was simply that YOU seemed to be very narrow minded, but for some reason wanted DIR/GUE to immediately change to fit your world view. The GUE system is standardised, and so variations outside of the standard are not part of the system. As an organisation we do re-evaluate our standards, and do adjust them as and when it is necessary to do so, but this doesn't mean that we open the floodgates to lots of small changes, that are all different for different people. If you don't like the standards, then that's fine, you don't HAVE to follow them, there are no Dive Police and there are certainly no GUE Police, but that also doesn't mean that sticking a bit of neoprene inside your mask can be considered DIR. Sorry about that.

HTHst
John

Is it any wonder that people, to this day have a bad taste in the mouth concerning DIR, that has little or nothing to do with the actually philosophy? Let's look at this foolish contretemps for just a moment. Diving with a Swimmaster Wideview mask (that comes with the neoprene block installed) is DIR. Adding such a block, yourself, to a different mask, is not DIR, at least according to John. But Peter (who is supposed to be a recognized authority on the subject) seems to think it is fine.

Now, I really don't give a rat's ass about whether it is DIR or not, that neither defines nor circumscribes my diving world. I only bring up the example to demonstrate how what is touted to be a holistic system can, with respect to a trivial issue, quickly degenerate into a reductionist one. I really don't care how John, or Lamont dive, per se, but I do believe, that as a thinking diver, I have an obligation to point out (if just for the benefit of new divers) that BS is being distributed and that confusion is rampant. If there is this much confusion and angst concerning a nose block, does that not make one wonder about more sweeping and important dictates?

Uhm, I just spent my whole 7 day vacation logging around 16 hours of bottom time in cave, and we just dove the whole time, and didn't really have to think about gear or procedures, which is more to the point. For all of thal's criticism about how its its narrow minded, it worked just fine for what I did, and works fine for just about everything that I do back home in puget sound, for around the past 8 years.

<---- I tend to get that expression on my face reading thal's long missives about his mask because it just doesn't apply to my life anywhere outside of online on scubaboard.

You want to know something the system doesn't work fine for? They do dives up here where the kids get to watch divers on the bottom show them sea life and in order to have comms to the ship, the diver needs to be in a FFM (and my dive buddy has logged hundreds and hundreds of these dives). Can't do that dive DIR. That is a *much* more solid example than any edge condition that Thal has come up with. That's okay, and thats not a contrived example to try to win an argument on the internet, that's just a dive with a goal that is outside the bounds of what most recreational diving is trying to accomplish. Thing is that we don't argue online trying to change DIR to encompass FFMs while yapping at kids underwater, its just not something that a GUE gear config is appropriate for, and we move on and use GUE for the remaining majority of diving where it works.

Can we please concentrate on the question at hand, and have a little less vitriol and personal comments when people try to post examples of how they've had negative experiences with the DIR community? Way too much of that, especially in the recent parts of this thread.

 

[johnkendall]

Is it any wonder that people, to this day have a bad taste in the mouth concerning DIR, that has little or nothing to do with the actually philosophy? Let's look at this foolish contretemps for just a moment. Diving with a Swimmaster Wideview mask (that comes with the neoprene block installed) is DIR. Adding such a block, yourself, to a different mask, is not DIR, at least according to John. But Peter (who is supposed to be a recognized authority on the subject) seems to think it is fine.

Sorry Thal, why do you think that a vintage oval fronted mask, that you can't buy anymore, would be DIR?

From an equipment perspective GUE recommends the use of a low-profile mask.

I'm afraid I can't comment on who might or might not be a recognised authority.

HTH
John

 

[The Chairman]

but I do believe, that as a thinking diver, I have an obligation to point out

Thal,

This "obligation" you feel is the very same ax you continue to grind. If the DIR crowd has proven anything, it's that reputations are earned. In this case, they have shown how you have earned yours in regards to being just as inflexible and intractable as you claim them to be. You should first get the beam out of your own eye before you attempt to remove the mote from your brother's eye.

 

[Thalassamania]

Oh ... I'm sorry, I did not realize that all items that you dive, regardless of design, utility, or quality, have to be in a current manufacturer's catalog to be safe and efficacious. Thank's for the tip.

 

[johnkendall]

Oh ... I'm sorry, I did not realize that all items that you dive, regardless of design, utility, or quality, have to be in a current manufacturer's catalog to be safe and efficacious. Thank's for the tip.

I didn't say that either Keep trying

HTH
John

 

[Thalassamania]

John, you've provided an A-1 example that answers the OP's question perfectly. You can stop now.

 

[johnkendall]

John, you've provided an A-1 example that answers the OP's question perfectly. You can stop now.

Thal, you have proved time after time that you actually have no interest in GUE/DIR other than to try and poke holes in it. If you actually have any questions then I am happy to answer them for you, I can't promise that you'll like the answers, nor do I expect you to change anything, or do anything differently to what you currently do. But if you want a GUE answer then I will do my best to provide it.

On the mask front, GUE suggest a low-profile simple mask. So an oversized oval front mask doesn't fit the bill.

HTH
John