Average Depth Diving?

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mike hit the nail on the head.

this is another good place where "a man with one watch always knows exactly what time it is, a man with two watches is never sure" applies.

dive with two entirely different computers, or compare what your computer thinks with v-planner or other dive software.

of course, that is the first step to the dark side of the force...
 
RTodd:
Great explanation. Good luck teaching the pigs to sing. They tend to just get angry. I would sincerly enjoy seeing just one of the mouths actually run this exercise and come back and say "Hey, I am starting to get it now." It would make attempting to describe this stuff not feel like such a waste of time.




Whats your problem? Why is any discusion on SB a waste of time? I dont know about everyone else but I use this board as a place to learn new things and offer my advice when I can. Why do you even bother taking part in these discussions when you see it as simply a waste of time? Who cares how much experience and knowledge you have when all you do with it is condescend people. With an attitude like that you are going to lose all credibility.
 
MikeFerrara:
Decompression is not an exact science and using exact measurements of depth and time don't change that though it does create the allusion that we're being precise.
good post.

Im willing to bet that for an average diver (not overweight or too out of shape) diving with good practices (ascent rates and surface intervals) , keeping hydrated and using a single AL80 tank for 100foot dives it would actually be pretty tough to get bent. Unless you are one of the lucky SOB's who can do a two hour dive and still have half a tank, your SAC usualy is the deciding factor.

Once you get beyond these types of parameters then you are going to want something you can rely upon. The thing i can never quite get my head around for Deco on the fly, average depth etc is that you are relying on your brain, and the first thing you are taught in any deep diving practices is that narcosis rots your brain.

What do the divers that are doing this type diving, doing to offset this problem?
 
Albion:
good post.

Im willing to bet that for an average diver (not overweight or too out of shape) diving with good practices (ascent rates and surface intervals) , keeping hydrated and using a single AL80 tank for 100foot dives it would actually be pretty tough to get bent. Unless you are one of the lucky SOB's who can do a two hour dive and still have half a tank, your SAC usualy is the deciding factor.

Looking at tables, it's hard for many divers to get past "NDL's" on a single 80 above 100 ft or so. Some still manage to get bent though. I think it's because the "NDL" is not a sharp line but a wide line and divers assume they're pretty safe within the NDL (even though they don't really know where it is) and they don't pay close enough attention to how they end the dive.
Once you get beyond these types of parameters then you are going to want something you can rely upon.

I would guess that it divers diving beyond "recreational limits" who more often prefer to rely on their own brain.
The thing i can never quite get my head around for Deco on the fly, average depth etc is that you are relying on your brain, and the first thing you are taught in any deep diving practices is that narcosis rots your brain.

What do the divers that are doing this type diving, doing to offset this problem?

helium!
 
MikeFerrara:
Some still manage to get bent though. I think it's because the "NDL" is not a sharp line but a wide line and divers assume they're pretty safe within the NDL (even though they don't really know where it is) and they don't pay close enough attention to how they end the dive.
!
My money is on ascent rates here. Last year was on a LOB and one bunch were doing lots of dives close to one hour surface interval (on nitrox), and ending their safety stops with a sprint to the surface :11: When i pointed out that their dives were getting shorter and shorter and maybe they should think about longer surface int they scoffed.

MikeFerrara:
True, was reading this and other posts and it seemed they were talking in much more recreational terms but i suppose with GUE's conservatism on gas's it makes sense in that context
 
as I see it there are a few important points for divers to consider.

The so called NDL is a wide line rather than the thin one.

Being aware of and in control of your profile is important.

Understanding some decompression theory is never a bad thing. Why?...

A diver strictly following a table may be lead to believe that as they approach an "NDL" the thing to do is to make a bee-line for the magic 15 ft safety stop depth. The magic of the number 15 of course is that time spent there needn't be added to bottom time. What about 18 ft or 20 ft or maybe even 30ft?
A diver with a computor hitting his NDL may see his computor suddenly screaming for them to get to a 10 ft stop. If I was trying to get bent that's exactly how I'd go about it.

The thing to realize is that some models/devices try to get you as close to the surface as fast as the math says is possible. That's all well and good but MY goal is to get to the surface with as little potentially harmful bubbling as possible. A conflict? I think so.

Time spent shallow after a dive is a good thing as is slow ascents at shallow depths. How shallow and how slow? That's where the study comes in and knowledge is almost always a good thing.

Profile depth (average or otherwise)? The least important. If you don't have any idea what your profile looked like beyond knowing max depth then you have no choice. By all means, use max depth if that's what your comfortable with and/or that's what makes sense for the dive. It's a valid choice.

The other thing that takes away our choices is not having anything left to breath. We've all see divers not only race to that magic 15 ft because they think they need to but we have all seen them cut that pause short for lack of breathing gas. They were certainly in no position to pause any deeper.
 
MikeFerrara:
The other thing that takes away our choices is not having anything left to breath. We've all see divers not only race to that magic 15 ft because they think they need to but we have all seen them cut that pause short for lack of breathing gas. They were certainly in no position to pause any deeper.
Having seen divers cut short their safety stop because 1) They were told it was a 40 minute dive and reached 15ft at 39minutes so only did one minute 2) They were told be back on the boat with 50 Bar
 
Albion:
Having seen divers cut short their safety stop because 1) They were told it was a 40 minute dive and reached 15ft at 39minutes so only did one minute 2) They were told be back on the boat with 50 Bar

But these same divers know enough to know that depth averaging can kill you. LOL

Don't worry, DAN is solving the diving after flying problem so even the severely bubbled can safely hurry home after hurrying to the surface!

patient - "Doc...it hurts when I do this."
Doc - "Well then don't do it."

The moral is that one should never fly while playing "I'm mister soda pop".
 
Albion:
Having seen divers cut short their safety stop because 1) They were told it was a 40 minute dive and reached 15ft at 39minutes so only did one minute 2) They were told be back on the boat with 50 Bar
There's no cure for stupidity, but ignorance can be cured. I hope that you had a quiet, polite chat with them.
 
MikeFerrara:
as I see it there are a few important points for divers to consider.

The so called NDL is a wide line rather than the thin one.

Being aware of and in control of your profile is important.

Understanding some decompression theory is never a bad thing. Why?...

A diver strictly following a table may be lead to believe that as they approach an "NDL" the thing to do is to make a bee-line for the magic 15 ft safety stop depth. The magic of the number 15 of course is that time spent there needn't be added to bottom time. What about 18 ft or 20 ft or maybe even 30ft?
A diver with a computor hitting his NDL may see his computor suddenly screaming for them to get to a 10 ft stop. If I was trying to get bent that's exactly how I'd go about it.

The thing to realize is that some models/devices try to get you as close to the surface as fast as the math says is possible. That's all well and good but MY goal is to get to the surface with as little potentially harmful bubbling as possible. A conflict? I think so.

Time spent shallow after a dive is a good thing as is slow ascents at shallow depths. How shallow and how slow? That's where the study comes in and knowledge is almost always a good thing.

Profile depth (average or otherwise)? The least important. If you don't have any idea what your profile looked like beyond knowing max depth then you have no choice. By all means, use max depth if that's what your comfortable with and/or that's what makes sense for the dive. It's a valid choice.

The other thing that takes away our choices is not having anything left to breath. We've all see divers not only race to that magic 15 ft because they think they need to but we have all seen them cut that pause short for lack of breathing gas. They were certainly in no position to pause any deeper.

All good stuff ... and things that a good instructor will cover either in OW or AOW.

To the point, most instructors I know teach that ...

- Decompression theory is not an exact science, and there is no magic formula. Your NDL is simply a guideline.

- Dive computers are only as good as your ability to interpret the data is provides. It's nothing more than an electronic table. YOU need to control your dive, not rely on your computer to do it for you.

- When ascending, slower is better ... 30 FPM is the maximum, not the rule. The importance of going slow increases as you ascend.

Personally, I correlate this to my discussion of Boyle's Law when I show how the fraction of pressure change increases as you get closer to the surface. Instead of using the "balloons" they show in the textbook, I discuss what decreasing pressure does to the gas bubbles in your body, and explain that what can really hurt you is for those bubbles to get big enough to touch and combine with neighboring bubbles. The trick is to let them come out of your system before that happens. That's why slow ascents and deep stops are important, even (or perhaps especially) for the recreational diver. That's why NAUI teaches the 1-minute stop at half your max depth. From that point you should slow down. I give my students a rule of thumb ... after your deep stop, cut your ascent rate in half each time you halve your depth. In other words, make your ascent rate correspond to the rate at which the water pressure is changing as you ascend. After your safety stop you should take at least a full minute to the surface ... two minutes is better.

Most students can grasp this concept and the reasoning behind it without going into anything that wasn't covered in their OW textbook.

As to the limitations of breathing gas, that's why teaching gas management skills is so important. I consider it one of the biggest failures of all the major agencies that they've neglected to cover these skills in their standard texts. Personally, no student of mine gets past AOW without knowing how to plan their dive around the amount of gas they're carrying ... and why all the stuff you've discussed above makes that skill so important.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
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