certification process questions

[al248005]

I was bored, since I am 1,100 miles and a few months away from diving again, so I completed every single section in the book in addition to the ones recommended to me by my instructor.
they include:

altitude diving
aware fish ID
boat diving
diver propulsion vehicle
dry suit
multilevel computer diving
search and recovery
wreck diving
underwater naturalist
underwater photography
and underwater videography

Might want to get the thoughts from the shop owner who suggested you take these on how they will help you become a better DM?


DPV- hardly doubt you will lead dives with a DPV or do tech dives with such few OW dives
UW Photo and Video- really? those two alone just screams hey I want you to spend alot of money into high dollar photo and vid equipment from my shop. I own a camera and I can take fairly decent pics and never took a class for it.

 

[tenacious]

I applaud you for doing all the "bookwork" online. I did all my courses the old way, but still re-read a couple of pages each day of one manual or another. I too, always got the manuals months ahead of time and studied the Hell out of them. If it were me, I would concentrate on one thing at a time.--ei. you study Rescue then do the in water work, then maybe move on. But that's just me. From your OP I get the feeling that you are exceptionally comfortable in the water and comfortable with diving, despite your very limited dive experience. This, of course, would be a plus. I also was very comfortable in the water for 40 years and took to diving quickly. I did Rescue after 26 dives, which went OK, but I probably should've had a few more. I started DM with 158 dives over 4 years and found it very challenging, taking over a year to complete (due to both my shortcomings and scheduling problems). Just food for thought.

thank you! what I am doing isn't different from what you did, I am getting a head start on future training. I am not going to go to florida and expect to knock check out dive after check out dive to put certificates on my wall. to put it in more familiar terms for me, it would be like buying an ar-15 and becoming familiar with it prior to joining the military. just because I took it apart and shot it, doesn't make me a solider.
I have noticed that academically, doing the classes in close proximity to each other makes the next class easier in some respects, since some of the material from OW was recovered in AOW, and some material from AOW was repeated in rescue.

---------- Post added October 23rd, 2013 at 10:02 PM ----------

Might want to get the thoughts from the shop owner who suggested you take these on how they will help you become a better DM?


DPV- hardly doubt you will lead dives with a DPV or do tech dives with such few OW dives
UW Photo and Video- really? those two alone just screams hey I want you to spend alot of money into high dollar photo and vid equipment from my shop. I own a camera and I can take fairly decent pics and never took a class for it.

sorry for the sarcasm here, I cant help it.

you might want to read the lines above the one that you quoted and the sentences that you did quote.

"I was told to complete the following sections:

deep
underwater navigation
peak performance buoyancy
night
and drift sections"

 

[tracydr]

Diving is equal parts knowledge and skill. That may be an overstatement though. There's a lot more skill needed to dive and to put your knowledge to work. It's like getting a drivers license online: you might be able to memorize a lot of rules, but there is nothing like being on the road to prepare you for driving. Nothing you can read can help you to develop situational awareness. That's something that has to be done in situ and not in an easy chair. Nothing you can read can increase your water skills. Again, that's something that is earned incrementally on each and every dive. Nothing you can read can help you to recognize bad habits in other divers. That has to be developed over time, AFTER you've developed a lot of good habits yourself.

If you want to learn a lot, then immerse yourself right here. Gain some perspective from peeps who are diving and maybe even teaching on a regular basis. Learn from their mistakes, their failures and even better, their triumphs. If you read the texts now, then be sure to re-read them again just before you take your classes.

As for negativity or flaming, I just don't see that in this thread. People disagreeing with your methodology is not them being negative as much as them caring to tell you how they feel. You asked for opinions and you got them. If you want a rubber stamp to do what you want to do anyway, well I'm sure there's a "RubberStampBoard.com somewhere. It's just not here. Do I have negative feelings about zero to hero divemasters, instructors or even captains who don't have the experience to back their certs? Oh definitely. There's a hurry up mentality in getting to be a professional that seems to circumvent getting enough experience to really have the ability to take another person's life in your hands. Don't kid yourself thinking otherwise. I've seen and read about too many divers put in peril, injured and even killed by those with the certs but not enough experience. Do you think I have the right to be negative about that?

It's my humble opinion that you would do better picking up and reading some books about diving before you get too far. "The Last Dive" by Bernie Chowdhury, "Shadow Divers" by Robert Kurson, "Diver Down" by Mike Ange, "Helldiver's Rodeo" by Humberto Fontova, "Deco for Divers" by Mark Powell, "The Six Skills" by Steve Lewis and last of all, the NOAA manual on Scuba Diving. Chew on those for a bit and then start on your cyber diver program.

If this doesn't help put it in perspective, then let me introduce you to a few of those professionals who have had people die in their care. They are emotional train wrecks and for good reason.

I'd add Deco for Divers by Mark Powell, Fatally Flawed by Verna Van Schaik and Fatal Depth by Joe Haberstroh.
The Six Skills is one of my very favorite. I also really found that PADI's Encyclopedia of Diving is surprisingly good. It's required for the Divemaster course, or was when I did the academic portion.
Did you learn nitrox? Tables? Those would be good skills and can both be learned online.

 

[tenacious]

Diving is equal parts knowledge and skill. That may be an overstatement though. There's a lot more skill needed to dive and to put your knowledge to work. It's like getting a drivers license online: you might be able to memorize a lot of rules, but there is nothing like being on the road to prepare you for driving. Nothing you can read can help you to develop situational awareness. That's something that has to be done in situ and not in an easy chair. Nothing you can read can increase your water skills. Again, that's something that is earned incrementally on each and every dive. Nothing you can read can help you to recognize bad habits in other divers. That has to be developed over time, AFTER you've developed a lot of good habits yourself.

If you want to learn a lot, then immerse yourself right here. Gain some perspective from peeps who are diving and maybe even teaching on a regular basis. Learn from their mistakes, their failures and even better, their triumphs. If you read the texts now, then be sure to re-read them again just before you take your classes.

As for negativity or flaming, I just don't see that in this thread. People disagreeing with your methodology is not them being negative as much as them caring to tell you how they feel. You asked for opinions and you got them. If you want a rubber stamp to do what you want to do anyway, well I'm sure there's a "RubberStampBoard.com somewhere. It's just not here. Do I have negative feelings about zero to hero divemasters, instructors or even captains who don't have the experience to back their certs? Oh definitely. There's a hurry up mentality in getting to be a professional that seems to circumvent getting enough experience to really have the ability to take another person's life in your hands. Don't kid yourself thinking otherwise. I've seen and read about too many divers put in peril, injured and even killed by those with the certs but not enough experience. Do you think I have the right to be negative about that?

It's my humble opinion that you would do better picking up and reading some books about diving before you get too far. "The Last Dive" by Bernie Chowdhury, "Shadow Divers" by Robert Kurson, "Diver Down" by Mike Ange, "Helldiver's Rodeo" by Humberto Fontova, "Deco for Divers" by Mark Powell, "The Six Skills" by Steve Lewis and last of all, the NOAA manual on Scuba Diving. Chew on those for a bit and then start on your cyber diver program.

If this doesn't help put it in perspective, then let me introduce you to a few of those professionals who have had people die in their care. They are emotional train wrecks and for good reason.

I see that you are the boss man around here so I will start by thanking you for creating such a great forum for newbies like me to learn (or try to learn) a thing or two about a new activity.

that being said, I'm finding the information you have given me to be inconsistent to be honest. In your first paragraph you tell me that I basically cant learn anything from sitting on my chair reading training manuals or doing academic course work.

In your second paragraph you suggest I learn what I can from reading posts on this forum. I totally agree with this, but it contradicts your first paragraph.

In your third paragraph, I believe our perceptions of negativity vary a bit and that is fine. I never claimed to be flamed on here, only that I didn't mention the dive master job in fear of being flamed. My goal when starting this thread was to find out if I was able to purchase and complete the online portions of certifications, prior to receiving the prior certification. you also go into accidents, incidents, etc with inexperienced people with certifications, and that may all be true, but that is a certifying instructor problem to me. I don't know what could be done to reduce that from happening, but obviously you think the system is flawed, and that should be looked into a little deeper. lastly, you ask if I think you have a right to be negative. Absolutely, I fought to defend those rights... we will get back to this shortly.

your 4th paragraph recommends several books that judging by the titles involve diver deaths and accidents. I sincerely believed you were contributing sound advice in this paragraph, well up until the "chew on those" sentence, so I will point out that this also contradicts your first paragraph.

I will take your last paragraph to be the most sincere and heartfelt, so I will respond with the same to you. As mentioned earlier, I fought for your right to be negative. I don't think it should take a master instructor to figure out what that means. I am very familiar with assuming responsibility for others lives, seeing peoples lives be taken, and yes even taking lives. I would bet that I have seen and experienced more along those lines that a vast majority of diving professionals. I would beg to say, (and I'm sure the individuals you mention with deaths on their watch would agree) that is something that cant be taught or learned from a book, online course, or message board post. nowhere in any of my posts have I said, insinuated, or made light of the seriousness, responsibilities, and dangers involved in diving.

I guess my perceived negativity stems from me wanting to increase my knowledge, and that not being received too well. would you yell at a high school student for taking college prep courses? after all, he or she is technically not in college, so therefore they should only focus on high school curriculum until they are out of high school, and worry about college only after they get their high school diploma.

the question that I posted earlier still hasn't been addressed so I will ask it again directly to you:
what negatives can come from me doing an online rescue course prior to being AOW certified?

 

[tracydr]

Might want to get the thoughts from the shop owner who suggested you take these on how they will help you become a better DM?


DPV- hardly doubt you will lead dives with a DPV or do tech dives with such few OW dives
UW Photo and Video- really? those two alone just screams hey I want you to spend alot of money into high dollar photo and vid equipment from my shop. I own a camera and I can take fairly decent pics and never took a class for it.

I read and completed the entire book,too. What's wrong with that? I found it interesting. Does that mean he did something wrong?

 

[tenacious]

I'd add Deco for Divers by Mark Powell, Fatally Flawed by Verna Van Schaik and Fatal Depth by Joe Haberstroh.
The Six Skills is one of my very favorite. I also really found that PADI's Encyclopedia of Diving is surprisingly good. It's required for the Divemaster course, or was when I did the academic portion.
Did you learn nitrox? Tables? Those would be good skills and can both be learned online.

Thank you for the recommendations Ma'am. I will try to come across the books you mentioned. I am going to do the SDI DM program which I'm sure wouldn't use the PADI encyclopedia, but I'm sure I could gain a thing or two from it.

I have not done nitrox yet. It was included in the price of my OW course according to the dive shop owner, but the employee didn't include the activation code, so there is a miscommunication there. I haven't addressed it yet, but I am sure it will be easily remediated once I do.


I got a basic introduction to tables and would defiantly benefit from some specific training. I do have a computer and got some online training specifically for the model I have.

very good suggestions, thanks again Ma'am!

 

[TMHeimer]

tenacious, Kind of off topic, but I'm curious-- Are you thinking of persuing a career as a dive instructor? Or supplemental income, something to do now and then? You are probably aware that other than refining basic OW skills (and a few more things, not to mention all the academics), taking the DM course doesn't really expand your diving ability all that much. This topic has been discussed on SB a lot. Is your objective to teach, or dive as a pro--ei. Commercial diver, etc.? Just curious.

 

[tracydr]

The thing about the PADI Encyclopedia is that is just a basic,diving book. Lots of formulas, physics,information about equipment and just good,basic knowledge. The most non-PADI book that I've seen PADI publish of anything that I've read and I've read a lot if PADI manuals, starting in 1995 with the OW manual.
I also like GUE's Beginning with the End in Mind and GUE's Dress for Success and UTD's online classes. Finally, browse some of the more technical forums, like the cave and DIR forum here on SB, as well as the thread about a change is coming and other forums about teaching, if you'd like to be an instructor.
A good base of knowledge is one of the most important parts of being a dive-pro. When a diver does the zero-hero program, often what is lacking is the pyramid of knowledge, the base of knowledge, because they learn so fast that they have no time to develop the mental or physical knowledge and the ability to apply their knowledge when the stress is high. New motor skills don't always come naturally when stress is high.
Important to read about accidents and incidents as we always learn from other's mistakes. Verna Van Schaik's book is not so much about accidents as it is a book about motivation. She's a motivational speaker and I really found her book highly inspirational. Plus, her book is very interesting if you have any interest in deep, cave, technical diving and in the history of deep diving.
I also like that she's another woman, which we certainly don't have enough of in technical diving. Having always been in a man's career, I really enjoyed that. I was one of the first women in Minute Man III Missiles, and the first woman Corp Artillery Surgeon.

 

[tenacious]

tenacious, Kind of off topic, but I'm curious-- Are you thinking of persuing a career as a dive instructor? Or supplemental income, something to do now and then? You are probably aware that other than refining basic OW skills (and a few more things, not to mention all the academics), taking the DM course doesn't really expand your diving ability all that much. This topic has been discussed on SB a lot. Is your objective to teach, or dive as a pro--ei. Commercial diver, etc.? Just curious.

That is a possibility. I can't say that I want to be an instructor, or that I don't. I simply don't have the experience to make that call as of yet.

I have to think that my situation is somewhat unique.

I decided that I wanted to dive recreationally before I ever got to Florida.
I was moving to Florida with no job lined up, I have a nice resume though
houses are so cheap down there compared to where I am now, I will own a house mortgage free.
I am being offered free dives, air, etc BEFORE any DM training.
I lived in Bermuda for a little over a year and worked like a slave instead of enjoying the good life that was right in front of me. (the money was too good). I went and talked to the dive Bermuda guys, but never dove. I regretted that when all was said and done, but snorkeling the NASA base before it was opened to the public was awesome.
I am an avid fisherman, and love to be on the water. I have owned several boats, and wanted to learn scuba to primarily spearfish.
after looking through pictures and videos, etc, I realized that I would probably enjoy scuba without a spear in my hand as well.


I went to Florida with the intentions of getting my wife and kids settled in and returning back to NJ to finish some work obligations. I never intended to dive while I was there. while driving around the area I found a couple of dive shops. the first one was on a different planet than me, but this one meshed well with me. I told them my situation and they told me about a discover scuba dive that they had going on later in the week and invited me to try it. I accepted the offer and they sold me the open water online course so I could do the online stuff when I got back to NJ and get certified when I returned to Florida. Me being me, I went home and completed the online class. That notified the instructor who called me and told me that with the dives they had scheduled, I could potentially be certified while I was down there. I agreed to attend the dives and the rest is history.

when I get back to Florida, I am going to cut a check for a house, and collect some residual income for close to a year from the time I get there. I have done fairly well for myself up to this point, I have some change in my piggy bank, I sold my house up here and made some coin, so things will be alright. I worked like a dog for the last 15 years or so and cant see myself doing what I do now 25 years from now, so I decided to move to Florida to enjoy life more and get into something less detrimental to my body.

looking at things from my shoes, I will live in a house I outright own, have a paycheck from previous work coming in for close to a year, have a comfortable stash in my piggy bank, and be living the good life. I will have a year to decide if diving is a career path I want to go down. prior to that I will have all the time in the world to dive, even better is the fact that I don't have to pay to dive. I am paying for certifications, but I would be doing that anyway. If I decide at any time during my diving that its not something that I want to do, I wont do it. If I begin DM training dives and don't think that diving is a career that I could or would want to do, I will stop. If I enjoy it and feel that I am able to continue on as an instructor, than I may do that. I believe becoming a DM will give me an introduction to the business and teaching side of scuba and help me figure out if I want to become an instructor, own a dive shop, be captain of a dive boat, or find a real job, lol.

the shop owner gave me a reasonable expectation about what I will make as a DM, and it is peanuts compared to what I make now, but I have a whole lot more bills now (chunky mortgage and highest property taxes in America) than I will in Florida. I will be able to live comfortably on less than what I was told I would average as a DM. Carrying tanks and cleaning gear is a small price to pay in my opinion for what I am getting out of being able to dive everyday. maybe I am at a different place in life than the people who don't understand that.

Diving 7 days a week, all expense paid liveaboard trips, trips to the keys, with money in my pocket at the end of it seems like a no brainer for me in my situation. I would be a fool not to take advantage of that chance. even if I make no money by the end of the trip, 10 people paid $3,0000 each to do what I did for free, (well I carried their tanks and cleaned gear for them). if I don't make enough money to survive, obviously I will have to make some changes and will cross that bridge when I get there. I don't think I will be mad at the free trips I took or experience I gained if none of it works out.

ask me this question in 6 months or a year and I should have a direct answer for you.

 

[Crass3000]

I understand your want for knowledge the reasons behind you wanting to dig right into things as fast as you can. From the sounds of it, financially you may be able to dive tons right out of the gate and get some of that experience everybody is mentioning. One thing I would mention is work a bit with the compass in the water before your AOW dives as personally I found it a bit tricky at first. Now it's no big deal but that's after quite a few dives and practicing on a course. Anyhow, I tried to take my classes one after one as fast as I could but I completed them before getting on with the next one so I can relate with your enthusiasm and desire to learn. I think you'll find that taking the classes as quickly as you are will not give you the best platform to start the next class and get as much out of it. Sincerely I think you'll be cheating yourself out of some of the things you could learn better but after your last post, who the heck am I to tell you how to do things. It sounds like you've done well for yourself so far.

I'm actually a lot like you in the way that I yearn for more knowledge. I'm at the point where I want to get into technical diving. I have a little library of TDI books for advanced nitrox, decompression procedures, both Tri-mix books and I'm probably forgetting some of them. I also have all the books from a different organization that one would need to read prior to getting full cave certification. I've read all the books from front to back and would love to take all the classes one after the other in a month but I realize that if I was to get all those certifications in a short period it would be from somebody looking more for money than they were worried about my skills (or my life for that matter). I probably have close to 150 dives in the last year and a half since I have been certified (and I live in MN) but I have PERSONALLY found that there are skills that are just going to take time to learn and master so that I can get the most out of the classes I want to take (not to mention I would be absolutely broke but that's another matter).

Honestly you seem to have the money so if you sign up for the classes and everything doesn't go as fast as you hope it's probably not going to be a big deal. One piece of advice I would give you is to learn kicks like the frog kick, etc ASAP as it will help you later on. Sounds like you are pretty motivated and that will work to your advantage. I sincerely hope everything works out with your training and your time frame if you are dead set on it. The more power to you if all the cards fall in the right place quickly. If they do you be one hell of a natural as I feel VERY comfortable saying that 99.9999% of the people on the board either had to or chose to move at a slower pace. In any case, Best of luck to you!!! You seem to have a lot on your plate in a short period without access to water in the meantime.

Edit: As others have mentioned, the DM certification doesn't really teach you much more about diving (or so I have read many times around here). That's not to say it's not a great class as you will learn a lot of theory and probably polish up your skills a bit but if you don't plan on working as one it's not a HUGE skill builder. Not sure how it is a your particular dive shop but lot's of divemaster candidates have the pleasure of working for nothing as a slave in the store. I guess that might actually be helpful and teach you lots about gear but it wouldn't be my pleasure. They may have people do it to improve their people skills (not sure).

Keep in mind that although you take a test online when doing an online course, those that I have known that went that direction still had to take another smaller test when they get to the dive shop before doing your water skills so you will want to keep all that information fresh in your mind.

---------- Post added October 24th, 2013 at 01:43 AM ----------

I read and completed the entire book,too. What's wrong with that? I found it interesting. Does that mean he did something wrong?

As did I. When you're a brand new diver it's really interesting to learn about the things diver's do and how they do them. I know I certainly was interested.