Dilemma about LDS

[JDostal]

Do what makes you happy - try a lot of things.

If you want to try out an STek BCD, come on up to Wisconsin this weekend and go diving with me - I've got one

I bought it used from a friend getting on about two years now. It is a fairly capable BCD. It's got some of of the nice characteristics of a bp/wing setup...but in my opinion it's kind of a "wannabe" bp/wing. I kind of wish that I would have known more about what type of diving I was going to do when I purchased it.

Especially considering the cost!!! The thing is expensive - you can pick up a true bp/wing for the same if not cheaper than the STek.

Overall it's nice - if you can get ahold of a DiveRite TransPac, try that out - it's the exact same thing as an STek.

If you do end up going w/ the STek, you can always use the wings from the STek on a real BP setup - it's got the right layout. I could actually easily attach a backplate to my STek and dive doubles...but there just seems to be a lot of extra "crap" on the STek - padded back, integrated weight pockets, extra webbing and webbing covers...etc, etc.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I think you are on the right track to be sensistive to your LDS's needs and it is usually a good idea to make an efforts to work colaboratively with a dive shop (or anyone else for that matter). But here are limits and it needs to be a two way street. You are the cusotmer here. The LDS needs a markup and needs to make money but more importantly they need customers to have the sales to markup in the first place. No customers and they go out of business regardless of the markup.

I am opposed to mail order purchases for a variety of reasons that I will not go into and I believe in supporting my LDS. On occassion I have wanted something my LDS did not carry and that was available mail order. Well, guess what, Leisure-pro and other companies will sell to a shop or the shop owner just like they would you or me. In addition many other dive equipment companies do not require quantity sales or a dealer ship for some items and will sell to an LDS with a valid sales tax license at their wholesale price.

So I and the LDS owner will hop on his computer or page through the catalogs he or I may have and find out what his bottom line is for the item and then agree on a price. He makes a little money, but also passes on his savings for not having to stock the item. Consequently, I get the item for far less than retail and normally at or just slightly above mail order price. He also gets to see the item and as we dive together see how it works in the water. It's not unusual for him to start stocking the item or something very similar, particularly if other divers start asking where I got it. It's to his benefit for them to hear that the LDS was willing to special order it for me.

In additon, I am not forced to buy mail order and do not feel guilty and the LDS owner regards me as a very good and loyal customer and treats me accordingly. I have never paid full retail for anything and get at least a 10% discount on everything I buy - even the stuff he stocks - which more than offsets his markup on the items he has special ordered for me.

My suggestion is to be upfront with the LDS owner and spell out that you like his shop, like the services, will spend a ton of money over time and would like to make an arrangement that would benefit both of you. Then spell out what you are willing to do to work with him. Also advise him you will keep any arrangement cofindential if he prefers. If he/she does not agree to work with you, then make it clear you will extend the same offer to another LDS and thank him/her for his/her time.

 

[Genesis]

either on selection OR price.

You'll just end up buying it twice (if on the selection.)

If you think the entire package deal on the SP reg at your LDS is reasonable, at the price they are offering, then go ahead and buy it. Frankly, I don't and wouldn't, but that's me. I'd rather pay a fair price for honest training when I need/want it, then have a shop owner "build in" some of his training costs into the price of hardware - especially since a lot of people don't buy hardware! Effectively, what that does to me (if I'm the hardware buyer) is subsidize the guy sitting next to me's class cost - with my money!

As for the BP+W/BC debate, if the LDS won't rent you what they want to sell you, then buy somewhere else! This, frankly, should apply to your regs as well - you should DIVE any gear you intend to buy before doing so if at all possible.

Regs DO breathe differently. BCs DIVE differently. How can you tell if you'll like it until you get in the water? You can't!

One of the few jusifications for a LDS mark-up would be the ability to actually use the gear before plunking down the money.

Would you buy a car without driving it first?

 

[cornfed]

Genesis once bubbled...

If you think the entire package deal on the SP reg at your LDS is reasonable, at the price they are offering, then go ahead and buy it. Frankly, I don't and wouldn't, but that's me.

Let's be honest, you're in a different situation then most people. You own you own boat and use this for most of your diving. I think think the average diver, who relies heavily on shops for charters, is shooting themself in the foot by pissing of their LDS. You need to look at the big picture and not get hung up on the immediate savings.

 

[scubajay]

TTSKIPPER

I think your lds is just trying to make money just like every other lds. Cannot be mad at that. You do what ever you think is right for you. Your lds is trying to make a living and you are trying to limit your spending. I was in the same situation my lds wanted me to buy all my gear from him. To be totaly honest if I would of had the money to spend like that I would of purchased all my gear from him but my cash income is limited. My brother who is a master diver actually purchased all my gear from his lds in Puerto Rico where he lives. I got a great deal. Also, online buying is becoming a trend. Do not be scared to buy online. That an option that I had. Hasn't been for my brothe I would of purchased all my gear online.

Is like this, diving is an expensive sport. You want to be able to buy equipment and still have money to go on diving trips. Or do you want to buy equipment and have it sit in the closet because you cannot afford to go diving due to the fact that all the money you had budgeted for your hobby went on the equipment and you never thought about the diving trips.


Or talk to your lds see if he can come down on prices, if he can't then you know what you need to do. He should be able to do something considering you took all the classes with him. If he's not able to go down on the price then you know he doen't care, then you shouldn't care either. Go somewhere else and feel good about it.

GET THE BEST PRICE. Shop around

 

[TTSkipper]

I appreciate the responses, and they have for the most part confirmed what my feelings were. I will be speaking with my LDS regarding the fact that I am not wild about their selection of BC's but that I would like to purchase the reg set through them.

I am about to leave to rent the Halcyon setup and I will use that as a basis on what type of BC I end up with. It may not be a Halcyon setup that I end up with but they seem to be the only LDS that I can find that will rent a BP/Wing combo so that I can compare that type of setup to other BC's.

Genesis - Yes the price for the reg set from my LDS is reasonable, and they do rent it so I have tried it. Also I just found out that my LDS has a 30 day return policy on all of their gear, so even if I bought a BC and did not like it they would take it back. I understand the issues that you have brought up in other threads and this one regarding LDS pricing and living only 40 minutes from LP I have taken advantage of buying most of my non-lifesupport equipment there (gloves, hood, accessories, etc.) due to their much lower costs on these items.

Cornfed - The bungies on the wings on the Rectek was another issue I had with the S-Tek system.

Thanks again everyone,

TTSkipper

 

[Genesis]

Let's be honest, you're in a different situation then most people. You own you own boat and use this for most of your diving. I think think the average diver, who relies heavily on shops for charters, is shooting themself in the foot by pissing of their LDS. You need to look at the big picture and not get hung up on the immediate savings.

I am being honest.

Why should I, as a local diver, subsidize all the people who come down here on vacation and want to do a couple of tank dive?

Why should I subsidize someone else's class cost?

Why should I subsidize someone else's gas fills?

Yes, I own my own boat. Yes, I am independant of the LDSs around here. This does not mean that none of the local shops get any of my money - some of them do, from time to time.

However, I resent deeply the idea that I should "support the local shop" so they can give back what I paid them to someone ELSE.

This is precisely how it ends up working for most people who buy at the local dive shop.

Is your class cheaper if you buy your gear there? By the amount of the upcharge you paid on the hardware? Same with your boat trips?

Nope in both cases, I'll bet. You pay $50 or $75 or $100 or whatever for your boat trip just like the guy does who comes in from out of town, buys NOTHING other than the boat trip, and gets on board.

You pay for part of his trip when you buy your gear from those folks!

Is that fair?

Hell no!

Should I pay for someone else's OW class? No. Yet that's exactly what I do when I "support my LDS" by buying their gear at full sticker.

The argument that I need to keep them in business rings hollow. I am under no obligation, nor should I, help a firm promulgate a business practice that makes no sense, especially when it costs me money.

Diving is indeed an expensive sport. I have a shiatload of gear in my closet, my compressor cost a bunch, my boat costs a bunch to keep and run, etc.

I have no problem with paying what it costs me to dive. I have a major problem with paying someone else's boat, training, and fill fees through what amounts to a tax on my activity, due to nothing other than the choice of the LDS' owner.

If people want to dive, they should spend what it costs. Imposing what amounts to a tax on my diving so that a tourist can come down here and get on a dive boat for $60 for a two-tank trip, when that doesn't cover their expenses and thus $200 of my regulator purchase there went into the "boat fund" is insane. The people who benefit have no relationship to me - except that I was effectively forced to pay for part of their recreation!

 

[cornfed]

Genesis once bubbled...

Yes, I own my own boat. Yes, I am independant of the LDSs around here. This does not mean that none of the local shops get any of my money - some of them do, from time to time.

However, I resent deeply the idea that I should "support the local shop" so they can give back what I paid them to someone ELSE.

You're far to wrapped up in your beliefs to even see my point.

You pay $50 or $75 or $100 or whatever for your boat trip just like the guy does who comes in from out of town, buys NOTHING other than the boat trip, and gets on board.

Maybe so, but there are certainly advantage to being a good customer. For example, I know a guy that has shop and a boat in the Outer Banks of NC. The only rental tanks they have are AL80s but when I called to reserve my last trip I asked for larger steel tanks with din valves and the owner didn't blink. When I showed up to get them I realized that he was giving me his personal tanks. That night when I asked for a dinner recommendation he called a friend who manages a restaurant and made a reservation for us and saved us a 45 minute wait.

So let see... I could buy my own boat and compressor or I could "waste" money by subsidizing other peoples diving... hmm...

You're so fair out of touch with 90+% of the diving population that it's comical.

I have no problem with paying what it costs me to dive. I have a major problem with paying someone else's boat, training, and fill fees through what amounts to a tax on my activity, due to nothing other than the choice of the LDS' owner.

If people want to dive, they should spend what it costs. Imposing what amounts to a tax on my diving so that a tourist can come down here and get on a dive boat for $60 for a two-tank trip, when that doesn't cover their expenses and thus $200 of my regulator purchase there went into the "boat fund" is insane. The people who benefit have no relationship to me - except that I was effectively forced to pay for part of their recreation!

Karl, all I wanted to do was point out that you're in a completely different situation then the overwhelming majority of people here. Annoying your LDS has totally different ramifications for you then it does for the rest of us. If you want to turn this into an argument about how the dive industry is screwing you over, go right ahead. I'm not goint to play that game.

The dive industry isn't screwing you any more than a nice restaurant is.

 

[Genesis]

The dive industry isn't screwing you any more than a nice restaurant is.

The restaurant doesn't conspire with the local grocery store and the meat packing house so that steak costs $30/lb.

The local dive shop does their damndest to do precisely this.

 

[cornfed]

Genesis once bubbled...

The restaurant doesn't conspire with the local grocery store and the meat packing house so that steak costs $30/lb.

The local dive shop does their damndest to do precisely this.

There is no conspiracy. The shops aren't calling the makers and saying, "hey I've got this great idea to **** over all our stupid customers"! The manufactures clearly state the conditions they want their dealers to abide by and the shops have choice as to whether or not they'll accept these conditions. Some do accept them, some don't. You're just pissed because more shops agree then don't.

Has it ever occurred to you why no one would pay $30/lb for steak but no body seems to mind spending $30 for a 16 oz steak a restaurant? You spend too much time in your own kitchen to understand why some of don't mind the extra cost of dining out. I'm telling people that being nice to their waiter might get them a good table, while your advice is like to get their food spit in.