Dilemma about LDS

[Warren_L]

Genesis once bubbled...


I am being honest.

Why should I, as a local diver, subsidize all the people who come down here on vacation and want to do a couple of tank dive?

Why should I subsidize someone else's class cost?

Why should I subsidize someone else's gas fills?

Yes, I own my own boat. Yes, I am independant of the LDSs around here. This does not mean that none of the local shops get any of my money - some of them do, from time to time.

Genesis, for fear of getting blasted, I do not intend any disrespect. But, I think CornFed's point was that since you own your own boat and are not dependent on the charter companies, you don't have much to lose if the LDS gets irked by you not buying all your stuff there. And I don't think anyone is expecting you to subsidize anyone else's dive expenses. For you, definitely buy where it makes most sense and no-one is telling you otherwise. But for people that rely on these charter operations for their diving, they perhaps need to be a bit more sensitive to them. That's all.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Someone mentioned buying the "non-life support" stuff through Leisure pro as their prices are cheaper. And someone else mentioned not having to accept a package deal. I agree with both but while both statements are right from a narrow point of view, with that narrow point of view you are missing the big picture.

In getting a great deal the key is leverage and in this case the package deal and the fact that "non-life support" stuff is not subject to the same very restrictive price structure as are regs and BC's is the leverage you need.

Most LDS's use a package deal to allow them to heavily discount the things like wet suits, tanks, and accessories in order to offer a competitive deal on the whole package, and in effect to work around the price controls the equipment manufacturers put on them for the BC's and regs. Most LDS's are not going to care if you substitute things in the package to get exactly what you want as long as you are spending the money and they are making a liveable profit.

If you are going to buy the whole package but split the purchase bewteen stores you run the risk of losing the savings you could have otherwise gained buy working with the LDS to put together a custom package that may even include special ordered items.

I also agree I have seen LDS owners lend or rent personal equipment to good customers both for rentals and to get them by until the customer's item can be repaired or re-placed under warranty. I have also offered some of my 20 or so "personal" tanks to the LDS on occassion to rent on very heavy rental weekends. I have never failed to benefit from that type of generosity when it comes time to buy a piece of equipment. I have even had my LDS owner get an item in and then deliver it to me at my slip on a weekend for immediate use and not even worry about payment until it's convenient for me. Lp will never provide that level of service.

A lot of it comes down to developing a relationship with an LDS and taking the time to communicate and determine what it is you have in common. People tend to get way to linear in their thinking and miss how the whole system functions and can be leveraged to everyone's advantage.

 

[Genesis]

The manufactures clearly state the conditions they want their dealers to abide by and the shops have choice as to whether or not they'll accept these conditions. Some do accept them, some don't. You're just pissed because more shops agree then don't.

What you're just described is a per-se violation of the law guy.

You cannot make an agreement to fix prices. That's illegal.

What the manufacturers hide behind is that there is no "agreement." You sign a dealer agreement and then AFTER THE INK IS DRY they present you with a "pricing policy" that is NOT referenced anywhere in your dealer agreement that says "sell below X and we cut you off".

Now you and I both know that the dealer knows good and damn well that this document is part of the deal. That is why its a scam and should be enforced as a violation of the law - because it is in fact an agreement, even though both the dealers and manufacturers hide behind it being a "unilateral" policy.

Do you think that one dealer in 1,000 doesn't know about this BEFORE they sign the dealer agreement? I don't believe that for a second. Hell, just read this board and you know about it.

That there is no signature on a piece of paper does not change teh fundamental character of what it is.

This is a dodge around a law that is SUPPOSED to prohibit this practice. Its not a PERFECT dodge either - Nine West (the shoe folks) got in trouble for this same kind of game, and was forced to agree to stop it in a settlement.

If you support a merchant that has found a way to circumvent the clear intent of a law, then you are supporting that behavior.

Are you sure you really want to do that? Is it REALLY in your best interest?

As for "better service", let me tell you a story about the "better service" that a shop in this general area (which I will not name, as I don't do biz with them and haven't heard their side of this) provided recently.

Some folks booked a vacation over here from Lousiana. Apparently, where they are its a 1+ hour boat ride to get to diveable water, simply due to the outflow of Ole Miss, so they come here to the Panhandle for their diving. They booked two days of diving with one shop.

The first day all went well. They took the next day off, and their second day of diving was to be their third day in the area.

The second day they were called at 5:00 PM the night before. It seems that some of the other people (unrelated to this group) for the boat that next morning had cancelled. The shop scrubbed the trip, even though the weather forecast was for blue skies and water-skiing seas on the gulf.

A friend of theirs knew me and called me to ask if I was going out. I was; with a forecast like that I'd be nuts to be dry. He asked if I had room on my boat. I did. They showed up with tanks and gear, came on board, and had a very nice day of diving which, according to them, blew the charter operator out of the water both in terms of the sites they dove and the comfort level provided.

Now I don't do this for money Drew. All I ask is that friends chip in for the fuel and bring their own drinks and food. I also don't care if you want to run a deco profile, spearfish, take pictures or just enjoy the water. I don't give a good damn what cards you hold, or what's in your tanks. I do have O2 on board, and you're welcome to help yourself if you think you need it, and I have a working radio and other emergency kit on the boat, as is fitting for any offshore vessel, private or otherwise.

So for less coin they had a more relaxed day, dove some really nice sites, saw a lot of fish, shot their dinner, had a fantastic time and we made some new friends.

So are you really "reliant" on those shops? There are folks who run commercial dive boats without a shop, and they have no conflict of interest problems. There are also a LOT of folks who privately own boats.

Make a few friends. Believe me when I tell 'ya that splitting fuel with some friends to go diving is a LOT cheaper than paying some charter operator, you'll dive where and when you want, on your own profiles, and you won't have to put up with the B.S.

Hell, there's a standing offer out there for SB members - if you're around here, I'll show you exactly what I'm talking about.

I don't have to preach to the converted about why its a better deal all-around. Just try it and you'll see for yourself.

 

[cornfed]

Genesis once bubbled...
What you're just described is a per-se violation of the law guy.

You cannot make an agreement to fix prices. That's illegal.

I'm not a dealer nor do I don't work in a dive shop. I'm sorry if my interpretation of the situation describes an illegal scheme. If it's illegal why doesn't someone stop it? If it's illegal why doesn't your little Diver's Union do more than ask people to agree to abide by the laws? Sounds a lot like asking high schoolers to sign an agreement saying they won't drink before prom.

I can't believe you got so hung up on the interpretation of an industry outsider that you missed the entire point of my post. Oh, wait, I forgot how eager you are to take any opportunity you can find to jump on your soap box.

 

[Genesis]

I just disagree with it.

Your point was that most divers "need" these shops for things like charter services.

My point is that no they don't, and that for most divers, they'd be better off all the way around - in terms of money spent, comfort obtained, profiles dove, time in the water, hassle factor and dozens of other objective and subjective criteria if they cultivated a few friends or sought out unaffiliated charter diving operators rather than play the "dive shop game."

Virtually anywhere that there is diving, there are people who dive. Form a group, set up an email list, and coordinate schedules.

That's what I've done here and it works. We have about 30 or so of us who dive around here. Some are more die-hard than others; I'll dive if the water is liquid and the seas conducive to not sinking the boat Others have a slightly different set of criteria

(Shockingly, there is at least one guy who's arguably more die-hard than I am that dives with me regularly. Last winter this dude showed up several times to dive in mid-50s water in a SHORTY, and actually enjoyed - and accomplished - shooting himself some dinner! I'm seriously hooked on acquiring a nitrogen load, but a shortie in 55 degree water is a bit much!)

 

[cornfed]

Genesis once bubbled...
Your point was that most divers "need" these shops for things like charter services.

That wasn't my point at all.

 

[daylight]

Nothing better to top off the week than a good Genesis rant against the evil LDS.
Stay wet and dive safe,
Larry

 

[ScottyK]

TTSkipper- I hope you are able to sort through all of this, and have some of that new gear for our dive tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing you again!

PS- Don't forget, it's not summer anymore. A 4:30PM dive is a night dive now. Remember to bring your lights

Scott

 

[Wyno]

cornfed once bubbled... all I wanted to do was point out that you're in a completely different situation then the overwhelming majority of people here. Annoying your LDS has totally different ramifications for you then it does for the rest of us.

It seems to me that you think the majority need the shops or we can't dive.

I'm with Genesis here, I don't need an LDS. I can just go down to Florida and have my cousin take me out on his boat. I can get my air fills at the marina or I could take Genesis up on his offer and dive the other side of Florida.

No LDS needed.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Genesis once bubbled...
Make a few friends. Believe me when I tell 'ya that splitting fuel with some friends to go diving is a LOT cheaper than paying some charter operator, you'll dive where and when you want, on your own profiles, and you won't have to put up with the B.S.

I agree with you on that. The same thing applies to air. In our area we actually have the upper hand in terms of air fills. A retiring diver donated a compressor for use in an air club and an under capitalized just opening dive shop in need of a compressor agreed to house and maintain it.

For $30 per year for a single diver and $50 per year for a family, you get all the air you want 24/7 with self serve whips in a combination locked box out front. The LDS does training of new air club memers on air fills and monitors tanks for current VIP's and hydros. (get caught filling tanks that are not current more than once and you lose your membership.)

The club has consistently made money and recently bought a new 17 cu ft compressor and expanded the air bank to to 16 4500 psi storage tanks. The LDS makes money off the VIP's and hydros at a reasonable price ($3.50 for a VIP and $15.00 for Hydro). He also gets free air to sell to non club members at normal fill prices and uses it in his rental tanks. He also uses the grade E air to mix with his 02 and offers Nitrox fills at $10.00 for non-members and $5.00 for club members.

It is a great deal all around and as a result of the cheap air and cheap nitrox, we have about 4 times the number of active divers in the area that we would have otherwise. The LDS then makes money off a far greater number of active divers who are spending money on training and equipment than he would otherwise.

The conventional wisdom is that a dive shop cannot survive without making money off air fills. But in this case, the LDS owner recently bought out his main competition in large part because of a loyal customer base that spends money at his shop due to the air club compressor being located there and due to his efforts to keep equipment and training prices reasonable.

I agree that a lot of LDS's take some undue liberties with their business practices and that the dive industry itself has some accepted pricing practices that are very protectionist and that can be viewed as restricting free trade. But this can be circumvented to some degree with package pricing.

Our LDS also has a habit of replacing the rental gear annually. The result is a lot of little used and current model BC's and regs that go out the door for very little money (maybe 1/2 SRP). In effect it has become a means for the LDS owner to keep his rentals very current at no cost while providing a means to offer a very deep discount on almost new equipment to divers on a budget.

Ideally, LDS's who operate in a very diver freindly manner would run the other predatory LDS's out of business. In that regard there is real benefit to cultivating relationships with LDS owners (and especally with hard pressed LDS owners) and selling them on the benefits of doing business in a more collaborative manner with local divers, not because it is the right thing to do, but because it is good business.